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[Merged]Atoms reach record low temperature


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#16    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:20 AM

View PostB Randomly, on 07 January 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Never heard of this before.  Thank you, I'll have to look into it.  Sounds like something from a comic strip... robbing energy from an object...

Question on this, as you seem to know about it... if you do this to an object, for standard's sake, say a gold bar....  Steal the energy, reduce it's temperature to Absolute Zero... When it heats back up, does it's energy return, or does the object decay?

Atoms dont disappear at zero or below. If you warm it back up its the same bar of gold as before.


#17    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:21 AM

View Postkeninsc, on 07 January 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Ok, I didn't read the article just scanned it quickly. I'll have to go back and read it more thoroughly.

I do know that the Speed of Light changes, not that the speed of light actually changes but they can measure it more accurately. To the average Joe, it doesn't amount to a pee hole in the snow but it matters to high end energy physics calculations. I'm assuming the "new" absolute zero is the same sort of thing.

The atoms they were experimenting with had an average temperature just above zero. Average means some are less some are more. This means some drop below zero.


#18    B Randomly

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:28 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 January 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

Atoms dont disappear at zero or below. If you warm it back up its the same bar of gold as before.

Good point... I wasn't sure if it was affecting it's atomic energy or not.

Edited to add:  I could see something like that being used for a negative purpose too... Damn humans and their obsession with... "How do I make this into a weapon!?!?!"

Edited by B Randomly, 08 January 2013 - 01:46 AM.


#19    sepulchrave

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:20 AM

In my opinion, the article is definitely too sensational.

The existence and the nature of negative temperatures - in the statistical mechanics sense - is well known.

There is a reasonably extensive wiki article on the subject, the subject was treated theoretically as far back as 1951 (at least), and is discussed in Kittel and Kroemer's classic introductory text book on thermal physics.

This may be the first experimental realization of negative temperatures though.

View Postdiablo_04, on 07 January 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

I believe they measure with equations, In science lot of things can be measured with equations.

Actually you are sort of correct (despite what other posters have said). The authors of this paper are using the statistical physics definition of temperature, and it is - to some extent - reasonable to claim that the ``negative temperatures'' measured by the authors is just a mathematical trick.

You can see in the wiki article I linked to above, that if the total energy of the simple model system described therein is positive (i.e. more than half of the particles are in the excited state) the statistical temperature of the system will be negative.

But there can be differences between the statistical temperatures of carefully controlled ensembles and the thermodynamic temperatures of macroscopic objects.

After all, temperature is a property of macroscopic objects which determines the direction heat energy will flow. Can temperature be properly defined for only 100 000 atoms? Or even more importantly, is it accurate to define an ensemble of 100 000 atoms that start at extremely low temperatures with Maxwell-Boltzmann statistics?

The original scientific paper published in Science is here, and a draft of the paper is freely available on arXiv here. Skimming the paper, it seems (to me, anyway) what the authors have actually done is achieved a population inversion in kinetic degrees of freedom.

The authors describe the statistics of the ensemble with the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, and derive the statistical temperature from that; and the result is a negative temperature.

This is definitely a legitimate description of the system, but don't be confused between statistical and thermodynamic temperatures. The thermodynamic temperature of their ensemble would still be very cold.

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 January 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

The atoms they were experimenting with had an average temperature just above zero. Average means some are less some are more. This means some drop below zero.
No, it depends on the type of statistics used. In Gaussian statistics, yes. In Poisson statistics (i.e. counting statistics), nothing can drop below zero.


#20    dan-paul-mark

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

this is just an idea but from what i read i got the impression that in normal possitive temperature conditions atoms have a force which repels other atoms away, so as a particle heats up and moves with more force it then pushes atoms around it to do the same. in negative energy the force is reversed to then pull sorrounding atoms causing them to slow down. is it possible that this could be linked with black holes and collapsing stars, is it poosible to use this to create extremely dense matter as possitive tempretures decreases the density of things?

Edited by dan-paul-mark, 09 January 2013 - 02:01 AM.


#21    csspwns

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:52 AM

wtf this was my damn link :O


#22    B Randomly

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:13 AM

I did create a thread, (refer to OP)... it says it's merged, so maybe a double posted thread?

You are more than welcome to have it, though.


#23    Br Cornelius

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:41 PM

I understood that absolute temperature is the absence of atomic motion, This represents an absolute state of existence - a thing is in  motion or it is static. In this case anything other than stasis has a temperature. There has never been an atom reduced to absolute  stasis, so what they are describing must be a statistical artifact of the system and not a description of its real physical state.

Am I wrong here ?

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#24    sepulchrave

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 18 January 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I understood that absolute temperature is the absence of atomic motion, This represents an absolute state of existence - a thing is in  motion or it is static. In this case anything other than stasis has a temperature. There has never been an atom reduced to absolute  stasis, so what they are describing must be a statistical artifact of the system and not a description of its real physical state.

Am I wrong here ?

Br Cornelius

I guess... ``sort of'' ?

The temperature that you speak of is really only rigorously defined (in my opinion, anyway) in terms of a statistically large ensemble of non-interacting, identical (but distinguishable) particles - i.e. an ideal gas. In that case the temperature is related to the average kinetic energy of the particles.

Since kinetic energy is a strictly positive term, an average kinetic energy of zero implies that all particles in the system have zero kinetic energy.

So in this situation, absolute zero does correspond to a complete absence of motion (which you rightly state has never been achieved).

On the other hand, a quantum harmonic oscillator has a non-zero ground state energy, and thus a particle in the ground state could still have a non-zero expectation value for kinetic energy. But, an ensemble of ground state harmonic oscillators would be unable to lose any additional energy to its surroundings, and therefore we should define it as being at absolute zero (in the sense that an object at absolute zero can only absorb heat from the environment, it cannot emit any heat to the environment).

But it is definitely a very technical issue, and I think one could present arguments either way.


#25    Rolci

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:38 PM

What I understand this article is trying to say is, if PV=NkT, and P is pressure meaning particles hitting the wall of the container, these guys, buy making all particles attracting each other more often than repelling, virtually created negative pressure, resulting, in principle, in negative temperature.

What I want to know is, what exactly do they mean by "tinkering with the interactions between atoms until they attracted each other more than they repelled each other."

Edited by Rolci, 01 July 2013 - 11:39 PM.

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#26    DieChecker

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:30 AM

That is probably propriatary knowledge that someone is going to have to Pay to find out. Probably that information will make it into the public sector in a couple years.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#27    sepulchrave

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:08 AM

I don't think the knowledge is proprietary.

The actual paper on this research lists most of the details. They ``tinker'' with it by adjusting the frequency, pulse width, etc. of the optical lattice in relation to the temperature of the ensemble.


#28    DieChecker

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:10 AM

How do lasers effectively trap particles? Are the lasers used to actually adjust the magnetic fields they are using, or something like that?

Edit: Should have read the links first...

View Postsepulchrave, on 02 July 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Quote

The resulting periodic potential may trap neutral atoms via the Stark shift. Atoms are cooled and congregate in the locations of potential minima.

So apparently the lasers push around the atoms, till some are trapped in the wavelength pockets? Interesting....

I have barely enough understanding of physics to have an idea how this works...

Edited by DieChecker, 02 July 2013 - 04:17 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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