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The EU is on the blitz against Eurosceptics.

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#151    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 26 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Making sure of standards of quality and so on, obviously that's all very good, but this enforcement of uniformity is always very biased in favour of the giant, wealthy industrial producers (whether it's fruit & veg, meat, milk, Fish or whatever), and the imposition of the same rules on someone who just wants to grow their own veg on a smallholding and perhaps sell it to friends & neighbours, for instance, or wants to keep a couple of sheep in their back yard, those are the kind of things that people tend to get annoyed by. it's the same with Fishing; so many small fisherpeople have been driven out by businesses by this "level playing field" that lets the French or Spanish to come steaming in with their gigantic nets and sweep everything before them. Enforcing of uniform standards just means imposing mass produced, Eurostandard mediocrity.
No small producer has ever been stopped from selling Class 2 veg in a market situation - this is more misinformation scare tactics. The type of people you are speaking of were never in direct competition with the large producers who only supply Class A produce.

Go to France or Spain to see how it really works when you have a public who are well informed and aware of issues of quality in produce. It is the likes of the British and Germans who have bought into the whole notion of Class A produce from uniform supermarkets because they never really had a food culture in the first place. You are been sold what the public wants - uniform Class A apples.

You believe this rubbish.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

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#152    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:33 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 February 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

I don't see how it can be allowed for a country to pull out of a larger political entity once it has entered it

Because the United Nations Charter states that all people in the World have the inherent right to Self-determination.


#153    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 February 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

No small producer has ever been stopped from selling Class 2 veg in a market situation - this is more misinformation scare tactics. The type of people you are speaking of were never in direct competition with the large producers who only supply Class A produce.

Go to France or Spain to see how it really works when you have a public who are well informed and aware of issues of quality in produce. It is the likes of the British and Germans who have bought into the whole notion of Class A produce from uniform supermarkets because they never really had a food culture in the first place. You are been sold what the public wants - uniform Class A apples.

You believe this rubbish.
You don't think, which is what I was saying, the whole idea of classifying veg as Class A or Class 2 is a laughable piece of bureaucratic timewasting?
This isn't about racism or Hating Johnny Foreigner or still hating the Germans because of the War, it's about a gigantically over-centralised and over-funded Big Government insisting on doing what Governments always insist on doing, i.e. Governing, in furtherance of the interests of Big Business, that's all it is. Do you really think the Politburo just wants to make sure that the People get safe & healthy Food?

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#154    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 26 February 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

You don't think, which is what I was saying, the whole idea of classifying veg as Class A or Class 2 is a laughable piece of bureaucratic timewasting?
This isn't about racism or Hating Johnny Foreigner or still hating the Germans because of the War, it's about a gigantically over-centralised and over-funded Big Government insisting on doing what Governments always insist on doing, i.e. Governing, in furtherance of the interests of Big Business, that's all it is. Do you really think the Politburo just wants to make sure that the People get safe & healthy Food?
So you missed the point about ensuring a level and understandable playing field which assists in transnational trade. That is what it is therefore - not to stifle or oppress by big government.
If you don't like it - buy your goods from farmers markets where you make the choices.

Winging.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 26 February 2013 - 12:51 PM.

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#155    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:58 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 26 February 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Because the United Nations Charter states that all people in the World have the inherent right to Self-determination.
Does this mean that I can hold a vote in my household and if a majority votes for it we become an independent country?


#156    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 February 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

So you missed the point about ensuring a level and understandable playing field which assists in transnational trade. That is what it is therefore - not to stifle or oppress by big government.
If you don't like it - buy your goods from farmers markets where you make the choices.

Winging.

Br Cornelius
ha ha ha, "ensure a level playing field for international trade"? Of course it isn't, it's about serving the interests of big Business, as Government always is. Only now, there's a whole extra layer of Government, serving the interests of those big Businesses who support it (no doubt through means that aren't necessarily as completely transparent as they might be made out to be) , over & above the Governments there already are, serving the interests of those big Businesses that support them , and both of them impose their will on their Citizens.
And Farmers Markets have to comply with all the Directives about Weights & Measures and Food Standards that are imposed by both. But, you will probably say, so do the Supermarkets and the Mega Food Producers; perhaps they do, (perhaps, I said, bearing in mind how Government is always skewed in their favour), but they can accommodate the costs of complying with all these Harmonisation Directives infintely better than small producers or individuals can, can't they. And was it small producers selling home-grown products that padded them out with Horsemeat? So perhaps all these Directives to supposedly ensure Food Standards aren't actually all that effective at all, really.

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#157    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Does this mean that I can hold a vote in my household and if a majority votes for it we become an independent country?

:D That's actually a very good question. And if I had more time I might be able to research and post on what exactly are the parameters of that human right. Nice logic though; you've made me think about this :tu:


#158    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 24 February 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Hmmm, EU is democratic is it, so, who of you Europersons voted for Barroso or Van Rompoy or any EU commisar commisioner. And, when there is referendum in some eurocountry and vote is against EU, why is there then another vote shortly after to obtain "correct" result? how is this democratic?

As an idle speculation from an outside, though informed perspective, I can see a possible future where UK, an independant Flanders, Nederlands and the Nordic countries will form a block of their own. Who knows, anything seems possible in EU madhouse, perhaps one day you will need a friendly bear will help you in your time of distress. :-*

Posted Image Oh, excuse me, nothing to see here, simply protecting my post from contamination :)

It's good to see that those outside the EU also see it for the undemocratic monstrosity that it really is.


#159    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:18 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 26 February 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

ha ha ha, "ensure a level playing field for international trade"? Of course it isn't, it's about serving the interests of big Business, as Government always is. Only now, there's a whole extra layer of Government, serving the interests of those big Businesses who support it (no doubt through means that aren't necessarily as completely transparent as they might be made out to be) , over & above the Governments there already are, serving the interests of those big Businesses that support them , and both of them impose their will on their Citizens.
And Farmers Markets have to comply with all the Directives about Weights & Measures and Food Standards that are imposed by both. But, you will probably say, so do the Supermarkets and the Mega Food Producers; perhaps they do, (perhaps, I said, bearing in mind how Government is always skewed in their favour), but they can accommodate the costs of complying with all these Harmonisation Directives infintely better than small producers or individuals can, can't they. And was it small producers selling home-grown products that padded them out with Horsemeat? So perhaps all these Directives to supposedly ensure Food Standards aren't actually all that effective at all, really.
The most over zealous implementer of these directive was the UK, the UK who on the other side of their faces say we don't want these rules and regulations. Can't you see the comedy in that. The country who consumes the most uniform food in Europe complaining about having uniformity imposed upon them.

Get Real.

Br Cornelius

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#160    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostTheLastLazyGun, on 26 February 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

It's good to see that those outside the EU also see it for the undemocratic monstrosity that it really is.

While I agree that the EU is rather undemocratic, I have to say so is Britain in general. We elect leaders who promise to do certain things, and to not do others, then when they get into power they usually do the opposite (largely unchallenged, politically), while we, the people, collectively don't really care enough to do anything substantial about it. Then we elect new leaders and the process repeats, over and over and over, while the past leaders are never held accountable for their actions.

It's a pseudo-democracy. Even the U.S. version of democracy in the form of a republic, while nowhere near perfect, is better, largely due to their constitution and process of top level decision-making (though this can actually lead to the other extreme of nothing at all being done, due to the left/right divide amongst senators and governors).


#161    stevewinn

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:22 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 26 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

This is what I mean by disinformation gaining a foothold. None of these products were prevented from sale, the reality is that they could not be classed as Class 1, therefore could only be sold as Class 2 produce. You see Class 2 produce everywhere on sale in Spain and it is marked as such.. The large UK Stores however will only sell Class 1 produce and that is where the misconception comes in because it is all uniform in weight, shape, and size.

Thats very kind of the EU, so you have two carrots one is 'perfect', the other a bit wonky knobbly, both are exactly the same in all values and quality except for appearance, but the EU distinguishes between the two and then tells us we can sell the knobbly one (very nice of them), BUT ONLY if its labeled 'product intended for processing' what a complete load of crap and instead of saying so you defend it, get a grip.  yet they the EU still have rules in place for 10 items, listed in a post above. why do the EU even have to have such rules. its a complete joke. if it looks like a carrot - tastes like a carrot - it is a carrot. but to some its only a carrot if the EU tell them it is. four years UK farmers battled against the supermarkets, and it took a further two years for the EU to change the rules.

I've said it before, the EU mindset is everything is illegal until them say otherwise, that is why we see such stupid rules.

the EU is taking the UK to court over VAT. the UK government lowered VAT on energy saving material and the EU ruled we cannot set our own VAT rate, so is taking us to the european court, as a result the UK is withdrawing the lowered VAT rate for Green materials from the end of this Tax year.

The Government is being taken to court by Brussels for offering across-the-board tax cuts to encourage homeowners to make their houses more energy-efficient. -
The statement announcing legal action in the European Court of Justice for breaching the rule explained: "Energy-saving materials could be covered by this provision if the conditions are met, ie if they are used for social policy purposes in the construction, renovation and alteration of housing.
"However, there is no provision in the VAT Directive to allow a reduced VAT rate on 'energy-saving materials' specifically, and the universal application of a reduced rate for energy-saving materials is therefore not allowed. "By allowing a reduced VAT rate to all energy-saving materials, the UK is therefore going beyond the scope of what is permitted under EU law." between member states.

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#162    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

Why is it steve that you can only get Class A produce in British supermarkets - who dictated that ?????

It certainly wasn't the EU.


VAT is the primary mecnahism by which EU contributions are calculated, so any unsanctioned attempt to reduce VAT is an indirect attempt to reduce EU contributions. It was the wrong mechansim to choose in implementing this particular policy initiative.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 26 February 2013 - 03:49 PM.

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#163    stevewinn

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Why is it steve that you can only get Class A produce in British supermarkets - who dictated that ?????

It certainly wasn't the EU.



Br Cornelius

before 2009 EU rules on misshaped fruit and vegetables dictated the supermarket would have to label misshapen fruit or vegetables 'product intended for processing' since 2009 when the EU changed the laws, it enabled the supermarkets to sell the misshapen fruit and veg such as the wonky carrot under the same description as the 'normal' carrot. thanks to the EU rule change.

You didnt even know the EU rules existed. only till i pointed them out to you a few posts back. you defend the EU day in day out, and yet you dont seem to know whats going on, or what your defending, - Keith whose sharp as a tack came along made a good point about the supermarkets and you've glossed over multiple points and focused on that, picked it up and running with it.

still to this day the EU rules exist for certain products. the EU rules which you seem to be avoiding which were in place for 20 years. yet you seem to be focusing on the supermarket. as for the supermarkets its up to them to decide what they want to sell. if that is class A then so be it, but still the point remains. the EU rules on misshapen fruit and vegetables existed. in the case of the Kiwis, it was a private grocer not a national chain of supermarkets. so instead of pretending its the fault of the supermarkets. - do you think the EU is blameless. and pointless in having the rules in the first place?

what do you think about the EU taking us to court over green VAT, posted previously, i seen the news piece and thought i know who that'll confuse, Br, it takes your two passions,or top topical debates both the EU and renewable energy/global warming. - so what side are you coming down on, whose right? the UK lowers VAT to save the environment to cut emissions, and the EU says no, and takes us to court.

Edited by stevewinn, 26 February 2013 - 04:28 PM.

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#164    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:44 PM

It is my understanding that the EU only designates certain vegetables as class <insert number/letter here> based on their shape or other characteristics. It is then the supermarkets that decide whether or not to use certain classes, probably wholly for aesthetic purposes. It seems that in this case it is the supermarkets we should be pointing the finger to, not the EU. Or am I missing something?


#165    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:37 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 26 February 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

before 2009 EU rules on misshaped fruit and vegetables dictated the supermarket would have to label misshapen fruit or vegetables 'product intended for processing' since 2009 when the EU changed the laws, it enabled the supermarkets to sell the misshapen fruit and veg such as the wonky carrot under the same description as the 'normal' carrot. thanks to the EU rule change.

You didnt even know the EU rules existed. only till i pointed them out to you a few posts back. you defend the EU day in day out, and yet you dont seem to know whats going on, or what your defending, - Keith whose sharp as a tack came along made a good point about the supermarkets and you've glossed over multiple points and focused on that, picked it up and running with it.

still to this day the EU rules exist for certain products. the EU rules which you seem to be avoiding which were in place for 20 years. yet you seem to be focusing on the supermarket. as for the supermarkets its up to them to decide what they want to sell. if that is class A then so be it, but still the point remains. the EU rules on misshapen fruit and vegetables existed. in the case of the Kiwis, it was a private grocer not a national chain of supermarkets. so instead of pretending its the fault of the supermarkets. - do you think the EU is blameless. and pointless in having the rules in the first place?

what do you think about the EU taking us to court over green VAT, posted previously, i seen the news piece and thought i know who that'll confuse, Br, it takes your two passions,or top topical debates both the EU and renewable energy/global warming. - so what side are you coming down on, whose right? the UK lowers VAT to save the environment to cut emissions, and the EU says no, and takes us to court.
I knew that what you told me about the EU rules was not the whole story because you have biased anti-european agenda. There was never a prohibition on selling "wonky" veg in supermarkets and yet the UK chose to effectively ban them from sale in supermarkets. That has nothing to do with the rules.

So I was correct in my assessment of your misrepresentation of the situations Steve.

Those rules were only introduced on a European level because they pre-existed on national level and it was necessary to bring all nations into conformity with a common standard. The implementation may have been flawed in its initial implementation but it was a response to a need created by the common markets member states.

The reality is that its only in the last years (due to straightened economic times) that it has been possible to purchase class II products in supermarkets. I consistently seek out Class II when I can, but that is rarely an option afforded me.

I like the truth - that's all.

As to VAT Steve, the situation is analogous to a local council attempting to dictate the rules of what PAYE rate presides in their area - some things can be done and some things cannot. There is certainly a way for the UK to implement their green building agenda - but the method they chose was not it and they should have consulted more widely before attempting to do what they have done. You cannot pick and choose the laws you wish to adhere to just because its expedient, otherwise you turn the law into an ass.

The reality is Steve that any law making body makes mistakes which need subsequently correcting in light of experience, the EU is no different to the UK government in this regard. The EU has a purpose in unifying employment, product and trading standards to facilitate the the Common Market.  

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 26 February 2013 - 05:59 PM.

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