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Belgian twins choose euthenasia


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#151    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:34 PM

View PostRender, on 19 January 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'll repeat my last post especially for you:



Don't be so arrogant to think that everyone involved with euthanasia doesn't go every thought that is proposed in this thread. You don't hold all the exclusive wisdom here.


Aha, I see who does think he's the exclusive dispatcher of wisdom.
Never mind, the thread is not about your bloated self-esteem.
Back on topic.


The murder of a person depressed by possibility of going blind cannot qualify as euthanasia.

Murdering people seen as burden or helping depressed people commit suicide is not euthanasia, and never will be. Euthanasia is killing of incurable patient suffering agonizing pain or stopping life support for body in irreversible coma.
Support for hypothetical situation from the OP (I can’t stress enough how much I doubt contents of that article) is support for eugenics, not euthanasia.

Now, quick, post a photo from your favourite TV show to prove me wrong.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 02:40 PM.

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#152    Render

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:57 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Aha, I see who does think he's the exclusive dispatcher of wisdom.
Never mind, the thread is not about your bloated self-esteem.
Back on topic.


The murder of a person depressed by possibility of going blind cannot qualify as euthanasia.

Murdering people seen as burden or helping depressed people commit suicide is not euthanasia, and never will be. Euthanasia is killing of incurable patient suffering agonizing pain or stopping life support for body in irreversible coma.
Support for hypothetical situation from the OP (I can’t stress enough how much I doubt contents of that article) is support for eugenics, not euthanasia.

Now, quick, post a photo from your favourite TV show to prove me wrong.

I'll just quote myself again, because everything is already said before:

View PostRender, on 16 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

It's understandable that some ppl feel a line was crossed here, because they aren't well-informed over the actual issue.
The twins went through all the steps for a year and half, consulted 3 doctors (as is required) and tried a myriad of medications and treatments..but many they couldn't even try because it would have effect on their eyes and other issues.
One of them had respiratory problems and could only sleep sitting upwards. The other one had trouble walking after a neck operation where they think they damaged bone marrow.
And now they were already almost completely blind, not a lil bit.
The twins informed every doctor that they would kill themselves, so ultimately their euthanasia was granted.

Saying that ppl should just commit suicide because that would somehow be better are very close minded. Suicide leads to a series of issues: family members that are crushed because knowing your family members/children committed suicide isn't an acceptable thought. Also, suicide isn't free or anything, the government gets involved either way.
With euthanasia there is a higher sense of acceptance, since family members see it more as a choice than an act of despair. This is something worth considering instead of just dismissing.

Also, these arguments that they should've just driven their car of some place or shot themselves : they were almost completely blind
waddaya want? That they call their mom and ask if she can drive em off a cliff?
Please.


And yanno, all these attitudes here where you just demand that these twins should've just buckled up and faced a life of darkness is very arrogant. Maybe try and have some empathy and understand that it must've been extremely daunting realising that soon they would not be able to communicate anymore. The reality would've been that they would be totally dependant of others and they wouldn't be able to do much anymore, except be condemned to being locked in themselves where images of their memory slowly start to slip away.
Simply demanding that they should just getter over this and keep on living, because you ppl refuse to even think about how reality was for them, is ridiculous.

If you don't trust the article of the OP, go out there on the internet and search for more information. Put some effort into it instead of just trying to make your hypothetical dystopian point.


#153    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 03:56 PM

Render,

If your posts were not convincing in the first reading, they won’t magically become more convincing if you quote them, no matter how many times.
I blame educational system for this awkwardness of yours, but you should be able to notice yourself it is not working.

Prospect of blindness is not a reason to kill a man. It’s not a reason to kill a dog or a cat or etc., it’s a reason to take more care about the person going blind.

Also, if your "free killings for everyone depressed" are utopia, then I’d rather live in my dystopia, with my loved ones. And god help those who would try to show their "mercy" on them in case they go deaf or blind.
I’d euthanize them the old way, with an axe. The reason? Stupidity combined with psychopathy. One is passable, if it's both at the same time - off you go. It’s actually eugenic to kill those with undesired traits, but since they themselves insisted that is from now on called euthanasia, so be it, I’m flexible.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 04:00 PM.

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#154    Render

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Also, if your "free killings for everyone depressed" are utopia

Posted Image

the fact that you still think this is what it is about, proves you simply do not understand. And you refuse to consider the extra information around this.
You're right, no matter how much i repeat myself to you, you wont get it. Consider this my forfeit.


I just hope others do understand, and seeing posts of others in this thread there are ppl out there who comprehend this case on a deeper, more thought-out level.

Edited by Render, 19 January 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#155    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View PostRender, on 19 January 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Posted Image

the fact that you still think this is what it is about, proves you simply do not understand. And you refuse to consider the extra information around this.
You're right, no matter how much i repeat myself to you, you wont get it. Consider this my forfeit.


I just hope others do understand, and seeing posts of others in this thread there are ppl out there who comprehend this case on a deeper, more thought-out level.

You’re not giving up your cute pictures instead of arguments approach, huh?
Oh, well, everyone within their own limitations...  could you draw me something in crayons? To soften my heart that refuses to believe in socially accepted murders?

Post additional information if you think it will change my opinion about disposing the imperfect biological material and think deeply about the possibility someone someday decides you are not perfect.

Blindness, deafness, depression are not valid reasons for euthanasia. Separately or combined.
If clinics exist that perform euthanasia on people who are not terminal and in pain that resists medication, simply on request of depressed people, then the more I think of it, the more I’m sure someone should be stopped from practicing medicine. To put it mildly.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 04:21 PM.

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#156    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

Additional info:
http://www.news.com....d-1226553945755


Quote

  Euthanasia is legal in Belgium, requiring those who seek it to convince a doctor and judges that they are suffering unbearable pain. The twins’ case was unusual because they were not in physical pain or terminally ill.




The first hospital refused them:

Quote

"There is a law but that is clearly open to various interpretations. If any blind or deaf are allowed to euthanise, we are far from home. I do not think this was what the legislation meant by 'unbearable suffering'," the Telegraph reports doctors at the first hospital saying.




The parents were against, older brother for:

Quote

Mr Verbessem explained his brothers had suffered spinal and heart disease, as well as losing their vision due to glaucoma.




Additional glaucoma info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaucoma



I will refrain from stating my full opinion, out of respect for the brothers who chose to depart.
I do respect their decision and I do feel for their suffering.

But their case has opened the door that was locked for a reason.




Edit: came here to read what horror ealdwita posted :D and noticed the door were locked so I made that "was locked".

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 05:01 PM.

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#157    ealdwita

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

I really wouldn't presume to state that the awful prospect of the onset of deafblindness is sufficient reason to choose euthanasia, but when you consider that the poor sods also had to live in Belgium then I can fully understand their decision!

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#158    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Murdering people seen as burden or helping depressed people commit suicide is not euthanasia, and never will be. Euthanasia is killing of incurable patient suffering agonizing pain or stopping life support for body in irreversible coma.
Support for hypothetical situation from the OP (I can’t stress enough how much I doubt contents of that article) is support for eugenics, not euthanasia.
Sorry but murder is illegal, and eugenics isn't about ending someone's suffering.


#159    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 19 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Sorry but murder is illegal, and eugenics isn't about ending someone's suffering.

Exactly.
So how can people claim the murder of two viable but depressed men was legal?
And how can anyone expect me to disregard the obvious, big as a house, fallacy they propose, that the disposing of not fit organisms (that’s eugenics) is the euthanasia. It is not.

There's a world of difference between mercy and getting rid of someone who requires help.
Actually, getting rid of disabled is the opposite of mercy.

It is anyone's right to live a merciless life, but I demand my intelligence and emotional balance is not insulted by claiming that this absence of mercy is, in fact, mercy, unknown to my merciless mind. *head explodes* This has gone too Orwellian for my taste.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 05:53 PM.

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#160    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Exactly.
So how can people claim the murder of two viable but depressed men was legal?
So there is evidence of murder? Because your baseless assertion hardly counts.

Quote

And how can anyone expect me to disregard the obvious, big as a house, fallacy they propose, that the disposing of not fit organisms (that’s eugenics) is the euthanasia. It is not.
How is ending someone's suffering, eugenics? Clearly you've disregarded the article instead.

Quote

It is anyone's right to live a merciless life, but I demand my intelligence and emotional balance is not insulted by claiming that this absence of mercy is, in fact, mercy, unknown to my merciless mind. *head explodes* This has gone too Orwellian for my taste.
Well twisting the meanings of words does nothing to compliment your intelligence.


#161    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 19 January 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

So there is evidence of murder? Because your baseless assertion hardly counts.

Yes, prior to cremation there were two dead bodies. Plus the professional opinion of doctors who refused to do “euthanasia” on people who were not in agony. The autopsy would show these two bodies could have lived and were not disabled in a way that would cause extreme pain - which was the required medical factor until this.
Medicine can't support suicides for obvious reasons, since it deals with curing not encouraging illness. Only extreme cases may allow doctors to consider ending life and depression is not what makes a case extreme in that sense.

Quote

How is ending someone's suffering, eugenics? Clearly you've disregarded the article instead.

Clearly I'm disregarding the oh, so fashionable total freedom of choice in favour of protecting life of those who will be victims of arbitrary "euthanasia".
Clearly I'm thinking of ways this case may backfire and take the very much needed actual euthanasia away from those who are in untreatable state and unbearable pain.

Clearly you don’t understand the concept of different levels of pain. Being scared of future may be considered suffering in poetical, but not in medical sense. Extreme anxiety can be alleviated with medication, if it ever gets accepted as a valid reason for “euthanasia”, I sure hope psychopathy will be on that list too.

Quote

Well twisting the meanings of words does nothing to compliment your intelligence.

Enlighten me, then. If I claim that getting rid of the disabled is merciless and you guys tell me it’s euthanasia, known also as mercy killing, then where’s the twisting?
Are you ashamed of your opinion?
You would agree with quite arbitrary killings but you have no guts to admit that is in fact what you would support?

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#162    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Yes, prior to cremation there were two dead bodies. Plus the professional opinion of doctors who refused to do “euthanasia” on people who were not in agony. The autopsy would show these two bodies could have lived and were not disabled in a way that would cause extreme pain - which was the required medical factor until this.
Medicine can't support suicides for obvious reasons, since it deals with curing not encouraging illness. Only extreme cases may allow doctors to consider ending life and depression is not what makes a case extreme in that sense.
The question was is there any evidence of murder, not whether two people were killed or if doctors agree with it.
Do you have any evidence or not?

Quote

Clearly I'm disregarding the oh, so fashionable total freedom of choice in favour of protecting life of those who will be victims of arbitrary "euthanasia".
Clearly I'm thinking of ways this case may backfire and take the very much needed actual euthanasia away from those who are in untreatable state and unbearable pain.
So allowing people who are suffering to end their lives will take it from those in pain?
How did you arrive at this marvelous conclusion?

Quote

Enlighten me, then. If I claim that getting rid of the disabled is merciless and you guys tell me it’s euthanasia, known also as mercy killing, then where’s the twisting?
Are you ashamed of your opinion?
You would agree with quite arbitrary killings but you have no guts to admit that is in fact what you would support?
Still ignoring the most important factor, the choice to end one's suffering.


#163    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 19 January 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

The question was is there any evidence of murder, not whether two people were killed or if doctors agree with it.
Do you have any evidence or not?


Two dead bodies. Cremated soon after.
If doctors had or had not consensus about justifiability of euthanasia is what makes it euthanasia or murder.
Are you going deaf? Or blind?
I was so close to make the most tasteless joke ever...


Quote

So allowing people who are suffering to end their lives will take it from those in pain?
How did you arrive at this marvelous conclusion?


Yes, my dear apparently over-praised child, it may set the justified euthanasia practice back, because obviously the controversy with which this case is ripe will hurt the already highly controversial issue that euthanasia is.
How can you not be able to see the logical consequences?



Quote

Still ignoring the most important factor, the choice to end one's suffering.


Aha. The most important factor is what you want. Sure. Not what anyone needs, not what is the objective logical action, it’s only what You want.
It will change once you become a parent... I hope.

And you dare mention ignoring? Which of my points was adressed with anything but complaining about having not enough freedom of choice?

Let me tell you something. Because I too have right to have my priorities, and these are not my whims. Not that I’d ever allow my whims to decide on matters of life and death.

I dread taking my animals to the vet, because they almost automatically suggest killing the patient.
I don’t want to dread taking my mother to the doctor because they will soon automatically suggest killing the patient.
And it could escalate like that because of half-witted, egocentric asses that peddle their religion of self, disregarding millions of normal people in their bizarre pursuit of some esoteric unrestricted choice. Why don’t you choose to notice there’s a ****en difference between feeling down and feeling morphine resistant agony?  
If you feel suicidal, it’s not about your right to feel mentally ill, it’s about time you see a doctor. Not to have yourself killed but helped find the strength again.

And do it somewhere off my lawn.

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#164    Kludge808

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 15 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Depression can always be solved by other means.
That is sooo not true.  I'm 67 years old and depression has been a constant companion most of my life.  According to your statement, medication, therapy or some other means should have eliminated it years ago.

The full litany now is severe depression with suicidal ideation, severe PTSD, transient global amnesia, agoraphobia and anxiety.  I've been dead once (and, of course, there had to be some damned fool who knew the old "pound 'em in the chest 'til the heart starts again" bit handy who managed to break several ribs in the process), on the edge a few times winding up only in serious pain and or decidedly ill, and terribly disappointed still others.*  I still live with the desire to off myself - or have someone do it for me - which has gotten me into a number of situations no "sane" person would enter.

* The last time involved swallowing a gun barrel and pulling the trigger.  Three times. (Yes, it was loaded.)  Each time it misfired.  I took it outside and tried the same rounds in the same gun to see what was up, and they fired.

Getting closer to the OP, my daughter also lives with depression but combined with significant pain.  She's terminally ill and has made me promise to find a way to end her life when she simply can't handle it anymore.  She's tough and she's a fighter but we both know there will come a time she simply can't go any further.  Anyone care to guess how that feels?

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#165    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostKludge808, on 19 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

That is sooo not true.  I'm 67 years old and depression has been a constant companion most of my life.  According to your statement, medication, therapy or some other means should have eliminated it years ago.

The full litany now is severe depression with suicidal ideation, severe PTSD, transient global amnesia, agoraphobia and anxiety.  I've been dead once (and, of course, there had to be some damned fool who knew the old "pound 'em in the chest 'til the heart starts again" bit handy who managed to break several ribs in the process), on the edge a few times winding up only in serious pain and or decidedly ill, and terribly disappointed still others.*  I still live with the desire to off myself - or have someone do it for me - which has gotten me into a number of situations no "sane" person would enter.

* The last time involved swallowing a gun barrel and pulling the trigger.  Three times. (Yes, it was loaded.)  Each time it misfired.  I took it outside and tried the same rounds in the same gun to see what was up, and they fired.

Getting closer to the OP, my daughter also lives with depression but combined with significant pain.  She's terminally ill and has made me promise to find a way to end her life when she simply can't handle it anymore.  She's tough and she's a fighter but we both know there will come a time she simply can't go any further.  Anyone care to guess how that feels?

I'm sorry for your various forms of heartache, truly. My heart goes out to you and your daughter.

As I have already mentioned in the thread: I am claiming the battle against depression can always be fought through, and won, but not that this is always the case. There are some who cannot manage it, but this is almost solely a product of our own individual environment, and something that can be combatted with drastic change.





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