76 replies to this topic

[Winterwind]

Arbitran, on 24 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

You people don't seem to realize how useful a material stone actually is. You don't have to mine and smelt it like metals, it's far more abundant (obviously), and stands up to weathering and environment for far longer. The gods used stone as a primary building material--though they did have impressive metallurgic skills. And the pyramids had function--it isn't just stacking rocks.

"You people" can be construed as offensive. Choose your words with more care. I was at least polite enough to preface my comments with a disclaimer that I wasn't seeking to offend anyone.

But please, do enlighten me. What "gods" are you referring to and what function did the pyramids have according to you and "your lot".

Edited by Winterwind, 24 March 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Arbitran]

Winterwind, on 24 March 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

"You people" can be construed as offensive. Choose your words with more care. I was at least polite enough to preface my comments with a disclaimer that I wasn't seeking to offend anyone.

But please, do enlighten me. What "gods" are you referring to and what function did the pyramids have according to you and "your lot".

I sincerely apologize for any tone of hostility my previous post may have carried.

The gods I refer to are well-known, are they not? They go by such names as Thoth, Rama, Shiva, Zeus... You are familiar, no?

[Winterwind]

Yes, I am familiar with them. I simply don't believe in them as actual beings. I see gods, basically, as simply names given to collective ideals and values but not the actual embodiment of such.

[Arbitran]

Winterwind, on 24 March 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Yes, I am familiar with them. I simply don't believe in them as actual beings. I see gods, basically, as simply names given to collective ideals and values but not the actual embodiment of such.

I can't say that I am surprised that you don't believe in them. Very few people do nowadays...

[Winterwind]

Arbitran, on 24 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I can't say that I am surprised that you don't believe in them. Very few people do nowadays...

From where I sit, I'm surprised people still believe in gods. And again this is not intended to offend but to me, believing in gods makes as much sense as believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I can understand the belief. I've experienced enough trying times in my life where appealing to a higher power that watches over us would indeed be comforting, especially if that power were listening and willing to lend a hand. But I don't have that belief.

Honestly, I find the AA view that the gods were aliens impressing simple folk with stone knives and bearskins more plausible than mythical fantasy beings with divine powers. Not that you've skimmed my previous posts but that would be at least my third Star Trek reference. I was born and raised on Star Trek and Doctor Who. I want to believe we're not alone. I simply don't see any empirical evidence yet that we've be visited or that they're among us now. Accepting aliens on faith would be like almost like accepting gods on faith. And I simply require some proof.

Should they ever land I'll be queueing up to greet them and begging for a lift off this rock. Assuming they're not here to enslave us of course.

[questionmark]

Winterwind, on 24 March 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

From where I sit, I'm surprised people still believe in gods. And again this is not intended to offend but to me, believing in gods makes as much sense as believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I can understand the belief. I've experienced enough trying times in my life where appealing to a higher power that watches over us would indeed be comforting, especially if that power were listening and willing to lend a hand. But I don't have that belief.

Honestly, I find the AA view that the gods were aliens impressing simple folk with stone knives and bearskins more plausible than mythical fantasy beings with divine powers. Not that you've skimmed my previous posts but that would be at least my third Star Trek reference. I was born and raised on Star Trek and Doctor Who. I want to believe we're not alone. I simply don't see any empirical evidence yet that we've be visited or that they're among us now. Accepting aliens on faith would be like almost like accepting gods on faith. And I simply require some proof.

Should they ever land I'll be queueing up to greet them and begging for a lift off this rock. Assuming they're not here to enslave us of course.

[Arbitran]

Winterwind, on 24 March 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

From where I sit, I'm surprised people still believe in gods. And again this is not intended to offend but to me, believing in gods makes as much sense as believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I can understand the belief. I've experienced enough trying times in my life where appealing to a higher power that watches over us would indeed be comforting, especially if that power were listening and willing to lend a hand. But I don't have that belief.

Honestly, I find the AA view that the gods were aliens impressing simple folk with stone knives and bearskins more plausible than mythical fantasy beings with divine powers. Not that you've skimmed my previous posts but that would be at least my third Star Trek reference. I was born and raised on Star Trek and Doctor Who. I want to believe we're not alone. I simply don't see any empirical evidence yet that we've be visited or that they're among us now. Accepting aliens on faith would be like almost like accepting gods on faith. And I simply require some proof.

Should they ever land I'll be queueing up to greet them and begging for a lift off this rock. Assuming they're not here to enslave us of course.

That you make a distinction between "gods" and "aliens" is hardly surprising; but wholly unnecessary. Just know: what I call "gods", it would be more equivalent to what you call "aliens".

[Swede]

Arbitran, on 24 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

You people don't seem to realize how useful a material stone actually is. You don't have to mine and smelt it like metals, it's far more abundant (obviously), and stands up to weathering and environment for far longer. The gods used stone as a primary building material--though they did have impressive metallurgic skills. And the pyramids had function--it isn't just stacking rocks.

The above is so riddled with error and presumption that it is difficult to address.

1) Do you actually wish to engage in a serious discussion of lithic technology? If so, please proceed.

2) While religious/spiritual beliefs are not a personally preferred topic, are you somehow suggesting that the various pantheons of past civilizations are to be taken at their face value as depicted by those respective civilizations? Would you be proposing that, for example, Pan was an actual, physical entity?

3) And what would your speculated functions of the pyramids be, besides their well documented purpose? Please be specific, as you have a tendency to be rather vague in regards to the specifics of your position. And kindly do not involve "eminent sorcerers".

.

[shaddow134]

Arbitran, on 24 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

You people don't seem to realize how useful a material stone actually is. You don't have to mine and smelt it like metals, it's far more abundant (obviously), and stands up to weathering and environment for far longer. The gods used stone as a primary building material--though they did have impressive metallurgic skills. And the pyramids had function--it isn't just stacking rocks.

These so called gods who you say had impressive metallurgic skills,why didn't they teach the Egyptians these impressive skills you say they had? but it seems they just let them carry on using copper tools.

Edited by shaddow134, 24 March 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[The_Spartan]

Arbitran, on 24 March 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

I sincerely apologize for any tone of hostility my previous post may have carried.

The gods I refer to are well-known, are they not? They go by such names as Thoth, Rama, Shiva, Zeus... You are familiar, no?

You Sir, are definitely misinformed. When did Rama or Shiva or even Zeus have anything to do with the pyramids???

[kmt_sesh]

Arbitran, on 24 March 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

ABSOLUTELY. At long last, someone who believes the ancients!

You're probably not familiar with the poster named cladking, Arbitran, but take care whom you support. Cladking is a deep thinker but as another poster pointed out, pretty much every one of his themes has been systematically disproved and shredded on the pages of UM. His idea that the Egyptians believed the gods built the pyramids, comes from his personal interpretations of the corpus of religion recitations known as the Pyramid Texts. While these Texts do in fact relate in detail how various deities helped the soul of the deceased king to ascend into his afterlife, the Texts certainly do not speak of how deities built pyramids.

How Egyptian pyramids were built was of no practical concern to the king upon his death, nor to the priests and administrators who tended to his funeral. What mattered to the Egyptians was not the "how" but the "why." The Pyramid Texts were deeply complex religious texts that worked in concert with the pyramid itself to cause the king's resurrection.

I spent years debating cladking on the finer details of this stuff. I even went so far as to perform translations of the Pyramid Texts to demonstrate how cladking's interpretations of them were incorrect. It's a done deal, no question about it. I don't wish to speak ill of cladking because personally I like him, but his escapades at UM were brought to a halt for a good reason.

Did the Egyptians believe gods and goddesses worked together to aid the king once his body was interred in a pyramid? Absolutely, no doubting it. Did the Egyptians believe the gods and goddesses did all of the manual labor to erect pyramids? Of course not.

I'd be willing to take part in another discussion of pyramids so long as it retains some degree of rationality. But if this one delves into the absurdity of old that used to clutter this particular forum, I'll be making a quick exit.

[Arbitran]

Swede, on 24 March 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

The above is so riddled with error and presumption that it is difficult to address.

1) Do you actually wish to engage in a serious discussion of lithic technology? If so, please proceed.

2) While religious/spiritual beliefs are not a personally preferred topic, are you somehow suggesting that the various pantheons of past civilizations are to be taken at their face value as depicted by those respective civilizations? Would you be proposing that, for example, Pan was an actual, physical entity?

3) And what would your speculated functions of the pyramids be, besides their well documented purpose? Please be specific, as you have a tendency to be rather vague in regards to the specifics of your position. And kindly do not involve "eminent sorcerers".

.

To respond to each of your inquiries:

1 ~ I would welcome a discussion of stone-based technology.

2 ~ I would indeed insist that, for instance, Pan was a physical person--as much as you or I (unless of course you happen to be an incorporeal spirit?).

3 ~ The so-called "well-documented purpose" attributed the pyramids by Egyptologists is largely speculative--no less speculative than the suggestion that they were, for example, alchemical transmutation machines.

[Arbitran]

shaddow134, on 24 March 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

These so called gods who you say had impressive metallurgic skills,why didn't they teach the Egyptians these impressive skills you say they had? but it seems they just let them carry on using copper tools.

They did indeed teach the ancient Egyptians of metallurgy--it is however quite plain that comparatively few useful metals existed in the region of ancient Egypt which they had to work with. Stone was the most effective building material--and it was often crafted using non-substantial means; the few copper implements which have been uncovered were used for alternative purposes.

[Arbitran]

The_Spartan, on 24 March 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

You Sir, are definitely misinformed. When did Rama or Shiva or even Zeus have anything to do with the pyramids???

I was not exclusively referring to the pyramids in this statement. However, Rama and Shiva (I reserve judgment on Zeus) may have had links to Egypt in the distant, pre-dynastic times.

[Arbitran]

kmt_sesh, on 25 March 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

You're probably not familiar with the poster named cladking, Arbitran, but take care whom you support. Cladking is a deep thinker but as another poster pointed out, pretty much every one of his themes has been systematically disproved and shredded on the pages of UM. His idea that the Egyptians believed the gods built the pyramids, comes from his personal interpretations of the corpus of religion recitations known as the Pyramid Texts. While these Texts do in fact relate in detail how various deities helped the soul of the deceased king to ascend into his afterlife, the Texts certainly do not speak of how deities built pyramids.

How Egyptian pyramids were built was of no practical concern to the king upon his death, nor to the priests and administrators who tended to his funeral. What mattered to the Egyptians was not the "how" but the "why." The Pyramid Texts were deeply complex religious texts that worked in concert with the pyramid itself to cause the king's resurrection.

I spent years debating cladking on the finer details of this stuff. I even went so far as to perform translations of the Pyramid Texts to demonstrate how cladking's interpretations of them were incorrect. It's a done deal, no question about it. I don't wish to speak ill of cladking because personally I like him, but his escapades at UM were brought to a halt for a good reason.

Did the Egyptians believe gods and goddesses worked together to aid the king once his body was interred in a pyramid? Absolutely, no doubting it. Did the Egyptians believe the gods and goddesses did all of the manual labor to erect pyramids? Of course not.

I'd be willing to take part in another discussion of pyramids so long as it retains some degree of rationality. But if this one delves into the absurdity of old that used to clutter this particular forum, I'll be making a quick exit.

I acknowledge and respect the fact that you know the Pyramids Texts, and I agree with your assessment. However, it cannot be denied the implications of the Inventory Stela (Stella?).