11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 17 January 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

It is an interesting observation that "again" and "against" are related to "wér", "weer", "with", "wither", "wether", "weder, "wieder" etc., but in the four fragments I gave , "WÉR" means "back" or "again".

Here they are for the last time.

[067/22]
WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN. WÉPNE SKILUN THI WRDA. ÀND IK SKIL WÁKA O.ER THI.
Do you want to be free again... (etc.)

[079/18]
THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA
The Mother didn't want to have it back

[079/19]
IK SJA NÉN FRÉSE AN SINA WÉPNE MEN WEL VMBE THA SKÉNLANDER WÉR TO NIMMANDE THRVCH DAM HJA BASTERED ÀND VRDÉREN SIND
I see no fear in his weapons, but in taking the Skénlander back, because they are bastardised and wasted.

[153/09]
THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR HÁ
Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back

...and there is others that show no connection to wér as back or again.

1. Sahwersa orloch kumth, send tha moder hira bodon nêi tha kêning, thi kêning send bodon nêi tha grêvetmanna vmbe lând-wêr.
1. If war breaks out, the mother sends her messengers to the king, who sends messengers to the Grevetmen to call the citizens to arms.

or-loch 4, afries., Sb.: nhd. Krieg; ne. war (N.); Hw.: vgl. an. ﾁrlag, ae. orlÐge (1),
as. orlag*, ahd. urlag*, mnl. oorlog; Q.: W, Schw; I.: Lw. mnl. oorlog; E.: s. mnl.
oorlog, Sb., Krieg; vgl. germ. *uzlaga-, *uzlagaz, st. M. (a), Schicksal, Geschick;
germ. *uzlaga-, *uzlagam, st. N. (a), Schicksal, Geschick; vgl. idg. *legh-, V., sich
legen, liegen, Pokorny 658; W.: nfries. oarloge; L.: Hh 80b, Rh 972a

However, warrior is wêrar, so warrior here, is not based on the Fryan word for war (orloch) nor from war (werra) but for weir, defense. As you said Abe.  Wér in wérar is defense/defender-warrior.

3. As soon as he is perfect in the use of them they are to be given to him, and he is to be admitted as a warrior.

4. After serving as a warrior three years, he may become a citizen, and may have a vote in the election of the headman.

3. Is hi bikvmen, sa jêve maen him waepne aend hi warth to wêrar slâgen.

4. Is hi thrê jêr wêrar, sâ waerth-i burch-hêr aend mêi hi hêlpa sin hâwed-manna to kjasane.



Quite frankly, I think this shows a possibilty that war is not a different word coming in from French, but possibly went out as defense/defend - wér and came back in as war, a proof that the OLB is an original language, maybe.

war could mean wér as in weir, defence/defend. Seems unlikely it would co-incidently come from another source but etymology gives us this and lots of proto words.

war
late O.E. (c.1050), wyrre, werre, from O.N.Fr. werre "war" (Fr. guerre), from Frank. *werra, from P.Gmc. *werso (cf. O.S. werran, O.H.G. werran, Ger. verwirren "to confuse, perplex"). Cognates suggest the original sense was "to bring into confusion." There was no common Germanic word for "war" at the dawn of historical times.
http://etymonline.com/?term=war

Proto-Germanic *werso is their guess. Frankish this time, *werra to French guerre - ON French werre - war
I don't think so, I'd say wér went out as defence/defend from weir/protect - they became warriors thru wérar and they defended the country.

Even as against - to defend against - that IS war.

war from werra (Frankish) will not be used in the OLB in that context.

wralda could even have this word - wér alda - old warrior/defender/protector

[The Puzzler]

This is an interesting couple of sentences:

Tha thju Moder wêrd-im of that er bekwârd tojênst tha wâch strumpelde. Thâ-r wither vpa bên wêre stek er sin swêrd to ir buk in segsande, nilst min kul navt sâ skilst min swêrd ha.

She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall. When he got up, be ran his sword through her: If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Also, I think if the word meant 'back' in any of those quoted parts you gave Otharus, it would say 'bek'.

Just as bekward is in the above sentence. Next to tojénst.
Tojénst is 'against' in this sentence.  The part with wither would really say something like: Then/when 'again' up ...


bek* 21, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Rücken (M.); ne. back (N.); ÜG.: lat. tergum W
4, L 12; Vw.: s. ur-, ðt-er-, -fa-n-g, *-find-a, -lam-ithe*, -war-d, -war-d-ich; Hw.: vgl.
an. bak, ae. bÏc (1), as. bak*, ahd. bah* (2); Q.: R, B, E, F, H, W, W 4, L 12; E.:
germ. *baka-, *bakam, st. N. (a), Rücken (M.); idg. *bheg-, *bhog-, V., biegen,
wölben, EWAhd 1, 417, Falk/Torp 259; W.: nfries. beck; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 622a; R.:
to bek-e, afries., Adv.: nhd. zurück; ne. back (Adv.); Q.: F; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 1088b

[Abramelin]

It's always important to look at the context for the meaning of such a word; it's almost like convergent evolution in biology: similar appearence/shape, different origin.

There is another word (not sure you mentioned it) in the OLB: wêre = English: were.

Btw, I wondered why no word similar to that in the meaning of 'again' shows up in modern English.

Then I suddenly remembered someone using the name "withershins" on some board:

1. (Astronomy) in the direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun; anticlockwise
2. in a direction contrary to the usual; in the wrong direction Compare deasil
[from Middle Low German weddersinnes, from Middle High German, literally: opposite course, from wider against + sinnes, genitive of sin course]

http://www.thefreedi...com/withershins


1.Anti-clockwise, in the contrary direction, especially to the left or opposite to the direction of the sun.

http://en.wiktionary...iki/withershins

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 January 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

This is an interesting couple of sentences:

Tha thju Moder wêrd-im of that er bekwârd tojênst tha wâch strumpelde. Thâ-r wither vpa bên wêre stek er sin swêrd to ir buk in segsande, nilst min kul navt sâ skilst min swêrd ha.

She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall. When he got up, be ran his sword through her: If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Also, I think if the word meant 'back' in any of those quoted parts you gave Otharus, it would say 'bek'.

Just as bekward is in the above sentence. Next to tojénst.
Tojénst is 'against' in this sentence.  The part with wither would really say something like: Then/when 'again' up ...


bek* 21, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Rücken (M.); ne. back (N.); ÜG.: lat. tergum W
4, L 12; Vw.: s. ur-, ðt-er-, -fa-n-g, *-find-a, -lam-ithe*, -war-d, -war-d-ich; Hw.: vgl.
an. bak, ae. bÏc (1), as. bak*, ahd. bah* (2); Q.: R, B, E, F, H, W, W 4, L 12; E.:
germ. *baka-, *bakam, st. N. (a), Rücken (M.); idg. *bheg-, *bhog-, V., biegen,
wölben, EWAhd 1, 417, Falk/Torp 259; W.: nfries. beck; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 622a; R.:
to bek-e, afries., Adv.: nhd. zurück; ne. back (Adv.); Q.: F; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 1088b

You could have made it easy for yourself if you had read a bit further on in that pdf:


bek-war-d* 2, afries., Adj.: nhd. rückwärts gerichtet, unvorhergesehen,
unbeabsichtigt?; ne. backward (Adj.), accidental; Vw.: s. -ich; Q.: B, E; E.: s.
bek*, *-war-d;

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf

"Tojenst" is nothing but "tegen" (against) in Dutch.

And that word we talked about earlier "jenst-vr" is "tegenover" in Dutch (=opposite).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 January 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Abramelin]

About that word, "jenst-vr" in the OLB, meaning "tegenover" (opposite) in Dutch...

It appears to show up first in West-Flemish in the 13th century:

TEJEGHENOVER

Combination of "t(e)jeghen" and "ouer".

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...VMNW&id=ID68182

( http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...d=M067919.re.38 )

In fact a word closer to "jenst" is "jegens":

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/jegens

It's a word used before "tegen" and then meant the same: against.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 January 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 January 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

It's always important to look at the context for the meaning of such a word; it's almost like convergent evolution in biology: similar appearence/shape, different origin.

Oh, I am. I'll have this OLB translated into Frisian before you know it.

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN.  
If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.  

wilst/wille/willa(If you desire/want) wér(true/truly) fry(free) wesa(be) (and under my) réd/réda(advice) and hoda(guard) léva(live), tjan(turn) ut(out) then(away).

(If you) desire/wish (to) truly/true free be and under my advice and guard live, turn out away.

...is how it really should read according to Frisian imo.

Again, I disagree the wér in this sentence is again or back, it is true/truly imo.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 January 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Oh, I am. I'll have this OLB translated into Frisian before you know it.

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN.  
If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.  

wilst/wille/willa(If you desire/want) wér(true/truly) fry(free) wesa(be) (and under my) réd/réda(advice) and hoda(guard) léva(live), tjan(turn) ut(out) then(away).

(If you) desire/wish (to) truly/true free be and under my advice and guard live, turn out away.

...is how it really should read according to Frisian imo.

Again, I disagree the wér in this sentence is again or back, it is true/truly imo.

That's what I mean: read the context:

We now come to the History of Jon

Then came the Gauls out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Cadiz, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Frisians. But now came Kalta and said: You were born free, and for small offences have been sent away, not for your own improvement, but to get tin by your labour. If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

http://www.sacred-te...l/olb/olb27.htm

To me it should say "again", not "truelly".

Of course we all could meet in the middle with this translation:

If you wish to be truelly free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 January 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 January 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

That's what I mean: read the context:

We now come to the History of Jon

Then came the Gauls out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Cadiz, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Frisians. But now came Kalta and said: You were born free, and for small offences have been sent away, not for your own improvement, but to get tin by your labour. If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

http://www.sacred-te...l/olb/olb27.htm

To me it should say "again", not "truelly".

Of course we all could meet in the middle with this translation:

If you wish to be truelly free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

.

lol yes.

As I also said this example is definitely NOT wér as again or back, nor does it seem to be true/truely, but does seem to be weir/defense.

1. Sahwersa orloch kumth, send tha moder hira bodon nêi tha kêning, thi kêning send bodon nêi tha grêvetmanna vmbe lând-wêr.
1. If war breaks out, the mother sends her messengers to the king, who sends messengers to the Grevetmen to call the citizens to arms.

This is def. wér in the use of defense/defender - wérar.
4. After serving as a warrior three years, he may become a citizen, and may have a vote in the election of the headman.
4. Is hi thrê jêr wêrar, sâ waerth-i burch-hêr aend mêi hi hêlpa sin hâwed-manna to kjasane.


wér seems to have a few meanings in the OLB. To clarify one...

Use of weir/defense:

weir
O.E. wer "dam, fence, enclosure," especially one for catching fish (related to werian "dam up"), from P.Gmc. *warjanan (cf. O.N. ver, O.Fris., M.Du. were, Du. weer, O.H.G. wari, Ger. Wehr "defense, protection," Goth. warjan "to defend, protect"), from PIE *wer- "to cover, shut" (cf. Skt. vatah "enclosure," vrnoti "covers, wraps, shuts;" Lith. uzveriu "to shut, to close;" O.Pers. *pari-varaka "protective;" L. (op)erire "to cover;" O.C.S. vora "sealed, closed," vreti "shut;" O.Ir. feronn "field," prop. "enclosed land").

wer-e (3) 20, afries., F.: nhd. Wehr (F.), Verteidigung; ne. defence;

land-wér is land defense so wér is being used for were, OE wer.

EDIT:
wer in this form could even be cover or shut, dam, fence, enclosure, protect, defend, sealed, field - enclosed land.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 January 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[The Puzzler]

My problem with against or again or back as wér is that these words all have other words used in the OLB.

against = jenst-vr
again = wither  
back = bek

[The Puzzler]

I will just change this slightly. advice to advice/care

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN.
If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

wilst/wille/willa(If you desire/want) wér(true/truly) fry(free) wesa(be) (and under my) réd(advice/care) and hoda(guard) léva(live), tjan(turn) ut(out) then(away).

(If you) desire/wish (to) truly/true free be and under my care and guard live, turn out away.

---------------------
This wér is used for many words like were, was etc.

wÐr-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. bekräftigen; ne. confirm; Vw.: s. bi-; Hw.: s. wÐr;
vgl. ahd. *wõræn?; E.: germ. *wÐræn, *wÚræn, sw. V., beweisen; s. idg. *øer- (11),
*øerý-. Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; L.: Hh 128a

This imo would be associated with wér - true/truely
hwêr is where
-------------------------

Must do bed, back tomorrow now.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 January 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 17 January 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

My problem with against or again or back as wér is that these words all have other words used in the OLB.

There are many more examples of different words having the same meaning.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 17 January 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

There are many more examples of different words having the same meaning.

I used the expression "convergent evolution" from biology.

Maybe we should introduce a new expression, "convergent etymology"?

[Knul]

Otharus, on 17 January 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

I agree that Dutch and English have not been used as a base for OLB-words, but both languages carry traces of the OLB-language (with its many spelling varieties).

The same can be said for Frisian, German, the Scandinavian languages and even (less obviously) the south-European languages.

I have pointed out many times that OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug) and that the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening). I have also said, that the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en) and that the transcription of Ottema again contains many errors (see scan) and misinterpretations like hyrtogum instead of hertogum). To say, that Dutch and English have traces of the OLB is the world upside down, like saying that Latin and Greek have traces from modern Dutch.

Jesterdêi wêron-er mong  (5) jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde [p. 8] vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande.  The tekst reads: to hare wopa. Hare should be hjara I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen

Attached Files

•  olb3_jpg-for-web-xlarge (detail).jpg   26.51K   18 downloads

Edited by Knul, 17 January 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[Abramelin]

I have posted really old Frisian inscriptions on wood (runes) and the language used did not look anything similar to the OLB language.

But then someone said it was because it wasn't Old Frisian at all, and maybe a foreign language.

Yeah, but that language would have been nothing else but Old Saxon, and then it still should have looked a lot like the OLB language, ...IF we have to believe the OLB, that is.

The word order would have been totally alien to any Frisian, Dutch, German, and English person. The word order was also totally different from the word order used in the OLB.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 January 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 17 January 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

I have posted really old Frisian inscriptions on wood (runes) and the language used did not look anything similar to the OLB language.

Found in Friesland is not the same as Frisian.