100 replies to this topic

[Arbenol68]

libstaK, on 02 June 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Well you are going to choose from a set of available options - that all those options are known and the outcome of choosing anyone of them is already known also does not change the fact that it is still your choice and you are free to choose any one of them.  Your past choices will help determine which one you are mostly likely to choose though and that can make the future predictable not only to God but to anyone who knows you - I've seen that happen quite often too.

This alludes to one argument that I can live with. That all possible contingencies make a finite, if inconceivably large, number of outcomes. That an all-knowing entity can have knowledge of all of these is consistent with omniscience. That's just my initial thoughts - might need to think about it a bit more.

As to the second part of your post. Accurate but largely irrelevant to what I had in mind. Our ability to predict what others are likely to do is well established - it's what I do for a living. But this is about probabilities, not absolutes.

Edited by Arbenol68, 02 June 2012 - 01:31 AM.

[sam12six]

Arbenol68, on 02 June 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

As to the second part of your post. Accurate but largely irrelevant to what I had in mind. Our ability to predict what others are likely to do is well established - it's what I do for a living. But this is about probabilities, not absolutes.

Exactly!! When a computer program makes a "decision", does it have free will? No, because the programmer knew the decision it was going to make as he was writing it. For a deity that knows, not thinks - KNOWS every decision that will ever be made and could have changed things so different decisions were made, then those decisions are made because that deity CHOSE to create the circumstances where those decisions would occur.

[Mr Walker]

Arbenol68, on 01 June 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Logically, that would make free will an illusion. You think you're making a decision, but in reality, you're not. If anything you do is already known, then it is inevitable that you will 'choose' to do it.

Thats not a paradox it is merely a play on words..

This is not my understanding of god, but suppose some sapient entity stood outside of time and space as we know it, and observed us. It could see the whole of the history of the universe, including our little bit of time within it.  BUT within that time we have free will and free choices. We do determine our destiny  and there are may potential futures at any one time in that time frame.
ALL this entity is seeing is film clip of its past. I can do this too, but that doesnt lessent the free wil or the unlimited potentials of the people from the past (my past) i watch on that film clip from my past When they acted they acted within a unknown multiple dot or linear timeline. That makes their thoughts and decisions totally free, even if they appear fixed from my perspective.

You are trappd in that illusion I spoke of, that comes from us only being able to view the past,  That makes us think the past was fixed (it wasnt ) and thus we think the future is fixed. (It isn't)  While i can observe a documentary history of the past, that does NOT mean that only that past was possible. The fact that an entity might live outside of our linear time frame, and be able to observe it all, like a documentary, does NOT mean that within that time frame any thing was ever fixed or inevitable. If the entity thinks this, then it too is trapped in an illusion..

See the bolded bit in your statement?. It is incorrect, even though at first glance it seems perfecly logical and inarguable..

I "know everything" about the past, but that DOES NOT mean that anything, or everything, in that past  was inevitable, nor that any choices at all were "fixed." That is just an illusion caused by my perspective from where i stand in time and space.

  As two examples, it was never inevitable, or certain, that hitler would invade poland, or that i would be born.   It was never inevitable, nor fixed, that life would start on this planet, nor that it would evolve in the manner that it did.I know it seems that way from the "here and now". but that is the illusion.

[Mr Walker]

I have free will. Now if i could just talk my wife into letting me exercise it.

[Seeker79]

Arbenol68, on 01 June 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

<p>Good point.

Behave. Interesting as that is, it's not the question.

Hehe ok I will behave, but there are only two possibilities for true free will. 1) a omnipotent god used its omnipotentence to let other concouse beings affect and create the future ( essentially leaving the future open ended on purpose.) 2) a creator god is not omniscient and dosnt know what will happen.

All other scenarios free will is an illusion. Unless the uncertainty principle is truely random, but it's probably not. We just loose the ability to gain certain kinds of knowledge at subatomic levels. That dosnt mean its not following set laws of physics.

Edited by Seeker79, 02 June 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[Arbenol68]

Mr Walker, on 02 June 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Thats not a paradox it is merely a play on words..

It was response to a previous post rather than an attempt to state my own opinion. The previous post said there was no problem with a being that already knows how things are going to turn out, and our ability to change that. I thought Libstak's post addressed that point pretty well (I acknowledged that) and your post here has merit to. One of your earlier comments stated that freewill would limit God's omniscience markedly, and that was the real purpose of this thread - to understand if traditional Christian views of God were truly compatible with the idea of frewill

[Arbenol68]

Seeker79, on 02 June 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Hehe ok I will behave, but there are only two possibilities for true free will. 1) a omnipotent god used its omnipotentence to let other concouse beings affect and create the future ( essentially leaving the future open ended on purpose.) 2) a creator god is not omniscient and dosnt know what will happen.

Thanks Seeker.
Option 2 speaks for itself. Option 1 also describes a being that is not entirely consistent with a view that God is the greatest thing that can be conceived of. Leaving the future open-ended may have been deliberate, but I can conceive of a being that would still know what will be. Wouldn't this being be greater than the one in option 1?

[IamsSon]

Arbenol68, on 01 June 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

To be honest, this is how I would expect a Christian to view this. And I think it generates an interesting paradox. If God knows what our ultimate choices will be, then you don't actually have free will to change that. If you can change it, then God is not the greatest thing we can conceive of, and he is not omniscient.

The inevitable conclusion I draw is that God is the greatest being and we don't have free will. Or, we have free will and God is not those things - some thing greater can be imagined.

Is is possible to be aware of this paradox and comfortable with it at the same time?

As several posters have already noted this is a topic that is discussed regularly on UM, including the idea that either God knows all and there is no free will or there is free will and God is diminished.  However, I think having two options although elegant from a writing standpoint is simplistic.  Does it have to be either/or? Can it be this, that, and the other?

I have found this video to provide an interesting perspective explaining how a being, living in the ninth dimension would be able to see every possible event that could happen in a myriad of possible universes and yet not affect the decisions made by the beings living in those universes: Imagining the 10th Dimension

Additionally, there is an analogy presented here on UM, in another "free will" thread.  If I could remember who posted it originally I would gladly credit them:

If I were to travel to the future and observe your actions there and return back to our time and watch you make the same decisions I saw in the future, would I have affected your ability to decide?  No.  Does the fact that I know exactly what you will do impact your ability to choose?  Not at all.

[Copen]

According to the Bible as I read it -- "Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son...Whom He did predestinate, THEM He ALSO called; whom He called, THEM He ALSO justified; whom He justified, THEM He ALSO glorified." No where in the Bible is God so weak that He cannot do what He wills. He never calls someone and has to get someone else because they won't cooperate. "ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out... No man can come to Me except the Father who sent Me draw him..."

Peter said, "This is an hard saying. Who can hear it?" Free will tickles the ear. But once you really understand election you realize "Free will" has a weak, mealy mouth, spineless, contradictory God who only rewards eternal salvation based upon what man has worked up in his mind and does with it.

Election and mercy leaves nothing to man. Not knowing, not accepting, not rejecting, not anything. From the author to the finisher of our faith, it is all about God foreknowing people individually, predestinating, calling, justifying and glorifying. Once you are glorified you are in heaven eternally.

What God knows we will or will not do is God in a second dimension reacting to man in the earthly realm . This is not necessarily connected to the predestination of being eternally saved. God awakens, quickens, calls, teaches, chastises, rebukes, speaks, etc. Those are all works that man responds to. Man is not saved by his earthy works. It is by the blood of a spotless Lamb. Add anything to the blood and you dilute it.

It should be much comfort that death of infants can know Jesus just as John the Baptist knew Jesus when they were both in their mothers' wombs. Retarded people who can perhaps cannot hear or see or understand, can know Jesus. Not because they accepted Jesus but because they were predestined to be saved. There is no such thing in the Bible as an age of accountability. If there were, all children should never be allowed to live past this undefined age. (See how ridiculous that logic is?)

The gospel did not get to the Americas for 1500 years after the death of Jesus. Millions of Inca Indians died in the meantime and millions of others such as Chinese. Many Muslims have never heard the gospel. Or they may have been taught to hate Christians. In which case Christians can justly pray, "Forgive them Father, for they know what they are doing." They may in fact be a predestined child of God but God has not awakened them to receive a lively spiritual heart.

"It is not of him that WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy...Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will and whom He will He hardeneth." God hardened Pharaoh's heart twice who was about to let the Israelites go. Next two times, God left Pharaoh to his own evil heart.

This should cause you a deeper questioning. What is this all about if the predestined are going to heaven; and the number is as numerous as the sand of the sea and the stars in heaven? An uncountable number, which is a lot more that the 1% in many countries.
God bless

Edited by Copen, 03 June 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[Seeker79]

Arbenol68, on 03 June 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Thanks Seeker.
Option 2 speaks for itself. Option 1 also describes a being that is not entirely consistent with a view that God is the greatest thing that can be conceived of. Leaving the future open-ended may have been deliberate, but I can conceive of a being that would still know what will be. Wouldn't this being be greater than the one in option 1?

Well yes... Not having any limit for god self imposed or otherwise eliminates free will dosn't it?  If the future actually exists and one with infinite  knowledge knows all of it. Then we are simply water flowing down a hill. But the kicker is that this is ultimately not greater. You see... Then god would also know every decision it would make and it would be in the same boat as us and not even god would have free will. In fact, this ultimately sounds like god dosnt even have conciousness because there would be no realativuty to define god.

No I don't think the future exists. I believe in free will which ultimately requires the future to be open ended. And I would choose sooner to believe in a god that is infinantly wise. An infinantly wise god who desired to create life with free will, and has the power to mold reality would design beings quite like itself with the ability to mold reality independent of itself. Furthermore these beings would be separate from god enough so that god would not know the decisions they would make... Essentially being little gods separate but still connected.
Maby this is what is ment by being made in the image of god. There is no free will in temporal omniscience. And it may not even be possible even for god. If god did not create time then there is no future or past to even know. The past is a memory and the future is a probability calculation.
God might be a little better at it than most, but if it threw in the variable of free will, then it can't totally calculate the decisions we make. My guess is that it's entirely a moot point anyway.

I don't believe time in the sense of a thing that exists independent if a concious mind. Its an invention to describe memories and calculations.

Edited by Seeker79, 03 June 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[Copen]

Seeker79, on 03 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I believe in free will which ultimately requires the future to be open ended. And I would choose sooner to believe in a god that is infinantly wise. An infinantly wise god who desired to create life with free will,

I don't believe time in the sense of a thing that exists independent if a concious mind. Its an invention to describe memories and calculations.

Your objections are not with me but with the Bible. It clearly says "It is not of him who willeth nor of him who runneth." "Born not of blood" (showing it is not a physical birth under discussion) "nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of the man but of God."
God bless us all is my prayer

[Arbenol68]

IamsSon, on 03 June 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

If I were to travel to the future and observe your actions there and return back to our time and watch you make the same decisions I saw in the future, would I have affected your ability to decide?  No.  Does the fact that I know exactly what you will do impact your ability to choose?  Not at all.

Hi, IamsSon.
No it doesn't. My question was not related to any being's influence on us, only about what this being's nature would be. He wouldn't impact your ability to choose, just know what your choices are going to be.

@Copen,
I figured there would be those that see predestination as truth. But this makes your God a passive one. He may have set things in motion but he now just sits back and watches the inevitable unfold. I can understand why some don't like this.

Edited by Arbenol68, 03 June 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Leonardo]

Arbenol68, on 03 June 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Hi, IamsSon.
No it doesn't. My question was not related to any being's influence on us, only about what this being's nature would be. He wouldn't impact your ability to choose, just know what your choices are going to be.

The question regarding God and the influence of the entity on free will depends rather on whether God is perceived to exist in the same way we do, moment to moment, or does God exist in many (or all) moments simultaneously?

Because these are the only options, then the 'simplistic' argument is true. God is either omniscient (i.e. omnipresent) and free will is an illusion, or free will exists and God is much less than the Christian faith describes. The hybrid "time-traveller god" is not an option, imo, but simply an attempt to fudge the incompatible concept of free will co-existing with a concept of an all-PKG deity - but it doesn't work.

[IamsSon]

Arbenol68, on 03 June 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Hi, IamsSon.
No it doesn't. My question was not related to any being's influence on us, only about what this being's nature would be. He wouldn't impact your ability to choose, just know what your choices are going to be.

I understand your point, but your concern was whether it is possible for an omnipotent God to exist along with free will.  I believe both the analogy and the video give viable suggestions to how that could happen.

Leonardo, on 03 June 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

The question regarding God and the influence of the entity on free will depends rather on whether God is perceived to exist in the same way we do, moment to moment, or does God exist in many (or all) moments simultaneously?

Because these are the only options, then the 'simplistic' argument is true. God is either omniscient (i.e. omnipresent) and free will is an illusion, or free will exists and God is much less than the Christian faith describes. The hybrid "time-traveller god" is not an option, imo, but simply an attempt to fudge the incompatible concept of free will co-existing with a concept of an all-PKG deity - but it doesn't work.

Again, I would posit that the 10th dimension video gives an explanation about how a being could be omniscient and yet people could make decisions.

[Copen]

Arbenol68, on 03 June 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

  @Copen, I figured there would be those that see predestination as truth. But this makes your God a passive one. He may have set things in motion but he now just sits back and watches the inevitable unfold. I can understand why some don't like this.

Predestination does not make God passive. It makes man passive. It gives God 100% of the credit and praise for saving them. The Bible says God shares the glory with no one. A person who says they did this or that and saved themselves by believing are taking part of the credit away from God. He did His part and man has to do his part.

Since the Bible is true, no part should be ignored such as predestination. For constructive logic one should take everything in the Bible and try to understand events of God interacting with mankind on earth so that there are no contradictions with predestination. Believing is the evidence of salvation. Not the way to get it. "Whosoever believeth hath," (hath is past tense "has" ) "everlasting life." Many have been saved eternally but didn't even know it. The gospel never reached their ears. They had a nice surprise when they died.

Events on earth are the one aspect of a two level God. Predestination is set. It has nothing to do with events on earth. God interacts with man bringing about His will. His will is not trying to save all mankind eternally if He can only convince them to accept Him so heaven will be populated as many as the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven out of every nation, tribe, tongue and people. The gospel is so that the already predestined and eternally saved disciples can learn how to worship Him the way He wants to be worshipped and receive blessings by their obedience while on earth and not have to wait till they get to heaven for blessings.
God bless us all is my prayer