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Unalienable rights, do they actually exist?


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31 replies to this topic

#16    Rlyeh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:23 PM

Rights only mean something when they are acknowledged.


#17    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 31 December 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Rights only mean something when they are acknowledged.

Exactly.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#18    GreenmansGod

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:57 PM

I have to agree with those who say it all depends on where you are born and under what circumstances.

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#19    lightly

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostJor-el, on 31 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I agree with this, unalienable rights seem to be an illusion, they exist or not according to where you may be born. If I am born in the good ol' US of A, I am endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable Rights, if I'm born in the Amazon rainforest to a local tribe, not so much.

    I'm not sure we should assume that  so called primitive cultures don't posses a belief in or understanding of  "rights"   .   Maybe , some think they are born with an inalienable right to hunt and fish, hang out with the guys,   and kick back in the hammock when they feel like it.   It's all a matter of beliefs?

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#20    GreenmansGod

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:02 PM

What I don't get is why people of some cultures think because they live in a certain way everybody should have to live that way.  Take the burka, If you want to walk around in a tent, fine walk around in a tent.  Why do all the women have to walk around in tent? If you don't want to marry someone is the same sex then don't. Why do others have to  under that restriction?  As long as nobody is getting hurt or out of hand what do you care what is going on next door. Do people allow themselves to live under opression, because they feel safe if everyone acts the same and goes to the same Church or whatever?   I go out in the woods on the full moon, do rituals and dance around the fire, I don't want everyone to do that. There would be too many people in the woods for one thing and not all people like that kind of thing.

Edited by Darkwind, 31 December 2012 - 07:04 PM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#21    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:47 AM

View Postlightly, on 31 December 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I'm not sure we should assume that  so called primitive cultures don't posses a belief in or understanding of  "rights"   .   Maybe , some think they are born with an inalienable right to hunt and fish, hang out with the guys,   and kick back in the hammock when they feel like it.   It's all a matter of beliefs?

Two points for consideration... the 1st being that what you call primitive cultures, will also be the ones to call you decadent. We seem to wheigh the value of others on a scale, and it invariably has us on top, and others lower down, thus we are the advanced culture, they are the primitive... that view has a number of errors in it, because it always depends on who is using the scale and what is being wheighed.

The 2nd is that there is a fundamental difference between unalienable rights an inalienable rights.

"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred."

Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:

You can not surrender, sell or transfer unalienable rights, they are a gift from the creator to the individual and can not under any circumstances be surrendered or taken. All individual's have unalienable rights.

Inalienable rights: Rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights.

Morrison v. State, Mo. App., 252 S.W.2d 97, 101.

You can surrender, sell or transfer inalienable rights if you consent either actually or constructively. Inalienable rights are not inherent in man and can be alienated by government. Persons have inalienable rights. Most state constitutions recognize only inalienable rights.

Source: http://www.gemworld....unalienable.htm

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#22    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:49 AM

View PostDarkwind, on 31 December 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

What I don't get is why people of some cultures think because they live in a certain way everybody should have to live that way.  Take the burka, If you want to walk around in a tent, fine walk around in a tent.  Why do all the women have to walk around in tent? If you don't want to marry someone is the same sex then don't. Why do others have to  under that restriction?  As long as nobody is getting hurt or out of hand what do you care what is going on next door. Do people allow themselves to live under opression, because they feel safe if everyone acts the same and goes to the same Church or whatever?   I go out in the woods on the full moon, do rituals and dance around the fire, I don't want everyone to do that. There would be too many people in the woods for one thing and not all people like that kind of thing.

I would say that one of the reasons is supposing that ones culture and civilizational point of view is inherently superior to anothers. The same I would say applies to religious perspectives.

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#23    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:02 AM

View PostJor-el, on 31 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

But if you have a right to Life and Liberty, I shouldn't be able to come along and remove them from you... the fact that I can do that seems to mean that they are not UNALIENABLE. You only have those rights as long as I abide by the same principle and contract.

You have the choice to protect yourself. When you let somebody murder you your life is no longer your own but theirs. You gave up your right to life the moment you decided not to defend yourself. Don't confuse life with live btw. You have a right to your life but not a right to live because everybody does in fact die.


#24    The Silver Thong

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:11 AM

View Postlightly, on 31 December 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I'm not sure we should assume that  so called primitive cultures don't posses a belief in or understanding of  "rights"   .   Maybe , some think they are born with an inalienable right to hunt and fish, hang out with the guys,   and kick back in the hammock when they feel like it.   It's all a matter of beliefs?

Your rights are dictated. Simple.  god or goverment doesnt matter they are told to us.

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#25    AsteroidX

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:22 AM

Quote

Your rights are dictated. Simple.  god or goverment doesnt matter they are told to us.

Thats what I hear. Dont belive in it however.


#26    _Only

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:54 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 01 January 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Thats what I hear. Dont belive in it however.

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#27    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:07 AM

Doh fine then the only one we have is liberty. Free-will/Choice That is unalienable. Even as a slave you have choices.

Rather though I'll keep my life as unalienable for the sake of my sanity. Considering that is what I consider what life is. The ability to make choices.

Just remember even if something is a law or at the point of the barrel.. it is your choice that decides if you do something or not. That they can't take away from you. Ever

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 January 2013 - 07:09 AM.


#28    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostJinxdom, on 01 January 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Doh fine then the only one we have is liberty. Free-will/Choice That is unalienable. Even as a slave you have choices.

Rather though I'll keep my life as unalienable for the sake of my sanity. Considering that is what I consider what life is. The ability to make choices.

Just remember even if something is a law or at the point of the barrel.. it is your choice that decides if you do something or not. That they can't take away from you. Ever

So the only real unalienable right is Free-will/Choice? All others are illusions that are based on a collective agreement that can be broken at any time?

What about "all men are equal", is that an unalienble right?

Or is that also a self illusion being that we are only equal when the full text is declared "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

What I mean is, those rights are not actually inherent, they were given to us by our creator. In that sense, we are all equal yes, but in the eyes of God, not in each others eyes.

Edited by Jor-el, 01 January 2013 - 12:51 PM.

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#29    Jor-el

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 12:54 PM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 01 January 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Your rights are dictated. Simple.  god or goverment doesnt matter they are told to us.

Yet one can Choose to obey or not according to our own perception of what those laws do to us. If we consider them unjust we can choose not to obey them, That choice cannot be taken from us ever.

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-C. S. Lewis


#30    Rlyeh

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yet one can Choose to obey or not according to our own perception of what those laws do to us. If we consider them unjust we can choose not to obey them, That choice cannot be taken from us ever.
The dead can't make that choice.





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