103 replies to this topic

[Yamato]

www.jvp.org/101

[Armchair Educated]

i feel for the Palestinians but its a losing battle and if i wasn't a christian it would be simple, id just say get those Jews out. America has a lot of Christians in it as well and i think this bible verse about the Jews is what is stopping us.
"I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” p.s very informative vid , learnt things i didn't know

Edited by Armchair Educated, 06 December 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[Erikl]

bull****.

Few inaccuracies:

1. There was no historic Palestine. It wasn't a state. What this movie shows as Palestine, and simply discard any argument as "...then a British colony..." is misleading - the British, together with the French, actually carved out a piece of land from the then dismantled Ottoman Empire, and named it "Palestine". There was no country, state, or even a district with the borders of what the Palestinians today define as Palestine, which was called "Palestine" before that. Yes, there were historic districts that held that name, and yes, Israel and the disputed territories (and Lebanon, and Jordan) might sit now on parts of that district, but it wasn't a country, or an independent entity of any kind - it was simply an imperial division - once a Roman one (they renamed Judea to Palestine, hence why the British, like most of the West which inherited Catholic\Roman terminology to biblical areas, knew the area as "Palestine"), then an Arab one (which called it Filistin). Then there's the fact that until few decades ago, there was no nation called "Palestinians", so you cannot even claim, like in the case of the Kurds for example, that the area was a home of a special, unique ethnic group. It was settled by exactly the same people which came to be known as Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqis - all of them Arab speaking, Muslim-majority people who didn't define themselves by nationalities, but by tribal affiliations. Jews, Samaritans, Maronites, Copts, Kurds, Assyrians, Berbers, Armenians, Circassians, on the other hand, were always separated ethnic groups with unique language, identity or religion. For some bizarre reason, we now see 22 separate countries for the basically same people - those Arabic speaking muslim-majority people - yet only one of the above minorities in the region got their own state - Jews. The rest were either ethnically cleansed (Maronites, Assyrians and Kurds), or are oppressed harshly (Copts, Assyrians, Kurds and Berbers), or are going through cultural genocide where they are being transformed and forced to absorb the culture of the Arabic speaking muslim majority (Berbers and Kurds).

2. Jews, and the Zionist movement, didn't start with British colonialism. It started some 40 years before that. The city I currently live in was built in the 1880s. The first British soldier didn't arrive until 1917. Tel Aviv was already given a "city status" by 1909 - years before the British mandate. And, guess what? you do not hear on any Arab-Jewish conflict at the time. Weird, eh? So for some 40 years waves of Zionists immigrated and cultivated the land, yet there were no harsh Zionist-Arabic clashes. It started with the British, which just like they did in the case of India-Pakistan, employed the good 'o "divide and conquer". First, they tried to put a rift into the Zionist movement, by separating the territory that was promised to the Jews during the war into two parts - Palestine and Transjordan. Then, after they saw that it didn't succeed, they forbed any Jews from living or holding any lands in Transjordan, even though Zionists have been settling there for almost 40 years now. It created a rift among Zionists, dividing it to two major camps - Socialists and Revisionists. This rift exist till this day, btw, with Labour representing socialist zionism and Likud representing revisionist zionism.

The British then went on and started instigating the Palestinians, which largely cooperated with the Zionists as it developed their lands. They released from prison religious extremists, allowed them uninterrupted propaganda, and even elevated them to high ranking positions (Haj Amin Al-Husseini, which was elevated by the British to the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem). Then, to make things even worse, they put a Jewish commissioner (Herbert Samuel) at the head of the mandate, amid the vile anti-Semitic propaganda which was allowed freely at the time, thus driving many Arabs into the hands of the extremists.

Then after the first anti-Semitic pogroms against Jews, in 1921, instead of harshly cracking on the extremists and standing behind the victims (in this case - the Jews), they gave in to the Arab demands and harshly limited Jewish rights in the land. This method was repeated all the way until the late 1930s, when this tactic started to back fire and cause both Arabs (which after some 30 years of being led by extremists, became extreme) and Jews (who were forced to create their own militias) to fight against the British rule.

3. This movie mentions only the holocaust, but totally ignores the ethnic cleansing the Arabs committed during 1948-1951 against Middle Eastern Jews - some 900,000 Jews who were natives in the region where robbed of all their assets and kicked out of their country with the threats of extermination. It also ignores the fact that the Arabs of Palestine called regular Arab countries around them to invade as soon as the British pulled off, and that the war of 1948 actually started as a civil war back in November 1947, and started by the Arabs, not the Jews.

Edited by Erikl, 06 December 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[odas]

Armchair Educated, on 06 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

i feel for the Palestinians but its a losing battle and if i wasn't a christian it would be simple, id just say get those Jews out. America has a lot of Christians in it as well and i think this bible verse about the Jews is what is stopping us.
"I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” p.s very informative vid , learnt things i didn't know

Both, palestinian muslims and palestinian christians are affected by this. One thinks that palestinians are only muslims but it is not the case.  If we would finaly leave the bible and the quran out of this a solution would be in sight. Al men are equal.

[Armchair Educated]

very interesting stuff, didnt know us brits were to blame for some of this

[Armchair Educated]

odas, on 06 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Both, palestinian muslims and palestinian christians are affected by this. One thinks that palestinians are only muslims but it is not the case.  If we would finaly leave the bible and the quran out of this a solution would be in sight. Al men are equal.

you would be very nieve if you think that will ever happen

[RavenHawk]

A nice re-educational piece.  Unfortunately, it is also skewed, but I'll read Erikl's comments before commenting further.

[Dan'O]

I will not support these people.

[Yamato]

Armchair Educated, on 06 December 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

very interesting stuff, didnt know us brits were to blame for some of this

Oh how I would love to dump the whole bloody affair in the UK taxpayers' lap and let you deal with it.  If we're always going to invoke the history as some kind of justification for Israel, of course the Brits are going to come up.

If US foreign policy is so great on this issue, you do it.   It's Britain's mess to begin with.

[with bells on]

the OP was a good watch.. thanks for posting..


@Dan'o.. what do you expect? the US have been funding this human rights disaster.. and sticking their nose into the whole Middle East area, for so many years, why wouldn't they be happy?? clearly the rest of the world was horrified, as was i.. it was not only a hit on the US but felt like a hit on all of us.. i believe the US and Mossad were behind 911 anyway.. its a joke.. so no wonder they had film crews filing this rejoicing.. its all part of the brainwashing.. just like this Iran is a threat joke.. Israel is the one we should be placing sanctions on.. the world has had enough..

[shanlung]

Allow Palestinians and Hamas access to arms of equivalent accuracy and power as that used by Israel.
Stop the handicapping of Palestinians and Hamas for them to be bullied , bombed and killed and robbed of their lands by Israel.

Give money and funds to Palestinians and Hamas to fight a fair fight.

[Erikl]

Yamato, on 07 December 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Oh how I would love to dump the whole bloody affair in the UK taxpayers' lap and let you deal with it.  If we're always going to invoke the history as some kind of justification for Israel, of course the Brits are going to come up.

If US foreign policy is so great on this issue, you do it.   It's Britain's mess to begin with.

However, you seem to have no problem remembering all so well everything Israeli did. How I love it with you - you're so picky, you can't even see how funny it makes your comments some times. Can't find real crimes against humanities Israelis are doing? oh well, we always have that ethnic cleansing they done back in 1948. Can't find any proof of massacre or genocide? Oh wait, we have the Dir Yassin massacre some 60 years ago done by the Irgun (which wasn't even part of the then legitimate Zionist movement). Hamas or the PLO are terrorists? wait, but the Jews used to employ terrorism against the Brits some 70 years ago! King David's hotel in "ya face"!.

For some reason, when it comes to Israel, your subjective historical accounts are all very relevant. Also the fact that Zionists inhabit the land some 130 years now, is completely ignored and their rights are washed aside in the face of the historical rights of the Palestinians, right?

I'm afraid the results of colonialism are oh so very real. The entire basis beyond our political division was created as a result of the rift the Brits put between Zionists. Haj Amin Al Husseini, an historical figure, is still hailed among Palestinians. The name itself - "Palestine" - is a result of British decision to call their administrative division in the area by that name. Should they called it "Neverland", we would have talked about "Neverlanders", not "Palestinians".

Yes, some nations have risen up above the excuse of colonialism, especially Israel and Jordan, but for some in the region it's affects are still quite obvious. The reason Kurds still don't have a state, but are divided between 4 different countries. The reason Shiia, Sunni and Kurds were mixed together to one country, is a result of British colonialism. The reason Kuwait wasn't part of Iraq to begin with, is colonialism. The reason for the deadly explosive ethnic mixture of Lebanon and Syria is the result of French colonialism. And the origins of the conflict between Israelis and the Palestinians, have it's roots in British colonialism as well. Perhaps it would have happened anyhow - who knows. But perhaps it would have been much, much less intense.

[Yamato]

Britain's mess making in the Middle East buttress what I'm saying.   Its unintended consequences provide very good reasons why I don't support practicing colonialism.   Israel isn't the sole exception to that.

No state has a right to collective punishment.   Israel isn't the sole exception to that, either.

[and then]

Yamato, on 07 December 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Britain's mess making in the Middle East buttress what I'm saying.   Its unintended consequences provide very good reasons why I don't support practicing colonialism.   Israel isn't the sole exception to that.

No state has a right to collective punishment.   Israel isn't the sole exception to that, either.

What you persist in calling collective punishment wasn't instituted by Israel until after the mayhem of the SECOND intifada.  After hundreds of Israelis were buried for doing nothing more than boarding a bus or going to dinner or lunch the government decided to separate their citizens from those who would murder them.  THAT's the other perspective you never give.  There are always 2 sides, Yam.

[Yamato]

and then, on 07 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

What you persist in calling collective punishment wasn't instituted by Israel until after the mayhem of the SECOND intifada.  After hundreds of Israelis were buried for doing nothing more than boarding a bus or going to dinner or lunch the government decided to separate their citizens from those who would murder them.  THAT's the other perspective you never give.  There are always 2 sides, Yam.

And Americans are killed by Mexicans on both sides of our border for doing nothing wrong at all.   Are we to strangle and colonize Mexico?   Applying their perspective to my own nation's policies climbs the heights of asininity.

This conflict has many beginnings.  And many reasons to fight, regardless of what side you take.  The principle remains, no state has the right to collective punishment.   No state has a right to ethnic cleansing.