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Germany Eyes Gold Standard

germany gold standard

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#46    acidhead

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:31 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 25 September 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

First, the Deutsche Bank is a private company, therefore hardly a policy maker. Second Germany has only a small voice in what the trend for the currency will be as they are member of the Euro meaning that the ECB makes the monetary policy and third but not last, this is another piece of disinformation thrown around by the gold hamsters who need some gullible to buy their overvalued stash.

Nobody who has any idea of the economy is going to go back to the gold standard because the amount of people on this planet and the issuing economy has outgrown all gold on this planet.

and at the same time the money supply has been inflated by the very individuals who are now saying we cannot go back to hard currency... it's been a scam from the start

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#47    Yamato

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 05:26 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 25 September 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Not only poor countries, a world that grows by 88 million people a year cannot constrict its economic growth to a little over a trillion, and that is about the value of the new gold mined every year.
So fractional reserve banking is okay but fractional reserve BACKING is not.  How convenient!

And you didn't correct the post you replied to.  Whoever takes the lead in setting the gold standard, other currencies will want to emulate that effort, which may be a currency peg similar to Bretton Woods.  The US dollar still has echoes of being the reserve currency of the world but that is coming to an end.  The way you "fiat hamsters" imagine up how a gold standard will work is ludicrous but if it makes you sound more reasonable...at least there's a motive.

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#48    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:45 AM

View PostYamato, on 25 September 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

No, tying it to work has nothing opposite to do with capitalism.  It has everything to do with letting the markets work.   There's that word again.   The market is me and the market is you.  Let us "work".

The Gold Standard is a sensible solution.  The Gold Standard achieved the Fed's alleged reason for existing which is stabilizing the dollar.  This is an historical fact it is not something you can deny unless you have no knowledge of history and want to hope that I don't either.   When we were under a Gold standard we didn't suffer from inflation in the goods and services we consumed.  There was no grandpa telling his grandkids " Well when I was your age that pack of gum costed me a nickel."  The only thing stable about the value of the dollar is its 99-year long trendline to zero since the Fed was created in 1913.   The establishment that you can't stop inadvertently defending has bled the value of the wealth of this nation by almost 1% a year for coming up on an entire century.

No economics textbook is going to tell you or me or anyone that money is fiction so that bit is rejected.  Gold has proven itself to have thousands of years of intrinsic value where no fiat currency ever could.   It's the only money there is to survive the ages.   It's never gone to zero in thousands of years.  Fiat currency always goes to zero eventually.   You have no historical (or moral) basis for having faith in fiat.   Do you think politicians are honest?   Look at the death and corruption and special interests all around you and tell me what you find so attractive and trustworthy in all that stink?
I have said that fiat currency is the problem - so your arguments are misdirected.
All money is a consensual fiction - even gold. We simply agree to believe that it has some arbitrary value.

I just think you are fundamentally wrong in assuming that Gold is the magic solution to our current problems. It is as arbitrary as anything you decide to peg your money to. It would be equally valid to peg it to Iron - its just that one is shinner than the other.

I say peg it to something of real value such as the vale of work or food - things that have real meaning rather than fixating on a piece of metal with no intrinsic value beyond its role in electronics and jewelry.


It undermines capitalism since capitalism as it currently functions is based upon creating value out of sentiment and thin air which can only be done with a currency with no fixed value. It is capitalist speculation which has been partly responsible for expansion of the money supply.

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#49    Little Fish

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:06 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I have said that fiat currency is the problem - so your arguments are misdirected.
All money is a consensual fiction - even gold. We simply agree to believe that it has some arbitrary value.
the marketplace decides its value just like everything else. economics 101. if you dictate an unrealistic value for something, then things go haywire.

Quote

I just think you are fundamentally wrong in assuming that Gold is the magic solution to our current problems. It is as arbitrary as anything you decide to peg your money to. It would be equally valid to peg it to Iron - its just that one is shinner than the other.
iron corrodes as much as fiat money. try accumulating iron for your retirement, where would you be in 99 years? same as if you had accumulated fiat currency.
iron is abundant, the iron supply would grow as much as much as fiat currency after 100 years. so a choice between iron or gold? no contest.

Quote

I say peg it to something of real value such as the vale of work or food - things that have real meaning rather than fixating on a piece of metal with no intrinsic value beyond its role in electronics and jewelry.
how do you peg a currency to the value of work? what does that even mean? you peg it to the average salary? so you peg money to money? confused.
food rots, the value of food can be manipulated simply by monopolizing farmland and restricting or expanding production, just like fiat currency. you want something whose quantity cannot expand or contract at the will of some greedy b*******. you would have the same problems as fiat currency and the money addicts and their political enablers would see you starve before their profits are affected. gold or food? no contest.

Quote

It undermines capitalism since capitalism as it currently functions is based upon creating value out of sentiment and thin air which can only be done with a currency with no fixed value. It is capitalist speculation which has been partly responsible for expansion of the money supply
fiat dollars are not value. value is what the market sentiment decides is value. you don't print value out of thin air and you can't buck the market even if you own all the guns. speculation does not increase the money supply, increase in money supply feeds the speculation, a currency backed by something tangible and a seperation of investment banking from commercial banking would prevent hysterical speculation.


#50    questionmark

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:06 PM

View Postacidhead, on 26 September 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

and at the same time the money supply has been inflated by the very individuals who are now saying we cannot go back to hard currency... it's been a scam from the start

If you want to go back to hard currency first you have to find a hard counter-value, which gold is certainly not. Or atr least not as long as it can be freely traded.

Edit: Besides that, it is not the wisest idea to substitute fiat currency to currency with a fiat gold standard. That would be the same in blue.

Edited by questionmark, 26 September 2012 - 02:03 PM.

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#51    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:21 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 26 September 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

the marketplace decides its value just like everything else. economics 101. if you dictate an unrealistic value for something, then things go haywire.

iron corrodes as much as fiat money. try accumulating iron for your retirement, where would you be in 99 years? same as if you had accumulated fiat currency.
iron is abundant, the iron supply would grow as much as much as fiat currency after 100 years. so a choice between iron or gold? no contest.

how do you peg a currency to the value of work? what does that even mean? you peg it to the average salary? so you peg money to money? confused.
food rots, the value of food can be manipulated simply by monopolizing farmland and restricting or expanding production, just like fiat currency. you want something whose quantity cannot expand or contract at the will of some greedy b*******. you would have the same problems as fiat currency and the money addicts and their political enablers would see you starve before their profits are affected. gold or food? no contest.


fiat dollars are not value. value is what the market sentiment decides is value. you don't print value out of thin air and you can't buck the market even if you own all the guns. speculation does not increase the money supply, increase in money supply feeds the speculation, a currency backed by something tangible and a seperation of investment banking from commercial banking would prevent hysterical speculation.

Gold is arbitrary just as Iron, work and food - there is nothing magical about Gold as a standard - its just a rather impractical and restrictive one to choose.

Money is a fiction which we all agree to abide by - but it is us who consensually decide what that money represents and how it is managed. We can choose any fixed standard.
Pegging your hopes to one arbitrary yardstick over another - simply because we have traditionally used Gold as a standard - isn't actually a well thought out solution. Gold was dropped as a standards for many reasons, some good some bad. The main reason was its intrinsic inflexibility.

If any of you had an ability to understand that most thing in human society are consensual fictions - you would realize that choosing one fiction over another is simply a matter of choice and those choices should be based on sound reasoning - not nostalgia and sentiment.

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#52    Yamato

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Gold is arbitrary just as Iron, work and food - there is nothing magical about Gold as a standard - its just a rather impractical and restrictive one to choose.

Money is a fiction which we all agree to abide by - but it is us who consensually decide what that money represents and how it is managed. We can choose any fixed standard.
Pegging your hopes to one arbitrary yardstick over another - simply because we have traditionally used Gold as a standard - isn't actually a well thought out solution. Gold was dropped as a standards for many reasons, some good some bad. The main reason was its intrinsic inflexibility.

If any of you had an ability to understand that most thing in human society are consensual fictions - you would realize that choosing one fiction over another is simply a matter of choice and those choices should be based on sound reasoning - not nostalgia and sentiment.

Br Cornelius
I just think you are fundamentally wrong in assuming that Gold is the magic solution to our current problems. It is as arbitrary as anything you decide to peg your money to. It would be equally valid to peg it to Iron - its just that one is shinner than the other.

No you cannot choose any fixed standard that is bologna.   Iron and paper deteriorate in oxygen.  Wood deteriorates, burns better than just about anything, and it turns into ashes and floats away when it does.  Food goes rotten.   None of these ideas are any good or even possible to consider seriously.  

Gold is the most resistant element to oxidation on earth.  You probably weren't aware of this and I doubt you'll even acknowledge it in your response. It has historical value nothing else can compare to, and a long proven history of being money.   It is easy to handle, it is lightweight, it can be stored easily in any climate and will last for thousands of years untouched by time.  It is the perfect money for these reasons. This is sound reasoning.  Ignoring history and making baseless statements is not.

Monetary policy is economic policy and you're never going to read that money is fiction in any economics textbook you will ever find so you're not even on topic in saying that.  If you want to make some kind of bizarre mental argument about what's fiction and what isn't, that doesn't belong here in a discussion about monetary policy.

I say peg it to something of real value such as the vale of work or food - things that have real meaning rather than fixating on a piece of metal with no intrinsic value beyond its role in electronics and jewelry.

Food goes rotten.  It has no long term shelf life.  It gets spoiled in air, in heat, in humidity, by bugs, by bacteria.   When you destroy any ability to actually save money you don't create the perfect form of money you eliminate it from society and then it will be fiction.

It undermines capitalism since capitalism as it currently functions is based upon creating value out of sentiment and thin air which can only be done with a currency with no fixed value. It is capitalist speculation which has been partly responsible for expansion of the money supply.

No, you need to use the encyclopedia to learn what capitalism is.   And whatever you're talking about here ain't it.

Edited by Yamato, 26 September 2012 - 04:55 PM.

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#53    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:18 PM

Just try exchanging your pile of Gold for a bottle of water when your a hundred miles into a desert - you'll soon find out how real it really is :st

The simple fact is that money is only ever as valuable as both traders agree it is. that requires a shared frame of reference which is a fabrication off two minds. Fiction it certainly is - as are all social contracts and morals.

You really should learn about the nature of the reality you actually live in.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 26 September 2012 - 06:23 PM.

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#54    questionmark

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Just try exchanging your pile of Gold for a bottle of water when your a hundred miles into a dessert - you'll soon find out how real it really is :st

Br Cornelius

Oh well, for three Kruger's he could drink out of my car's radiator...

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#55    Yamato

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Just try exchanging your pile of Gold for a bottle of water when your a hundred miles into a dessert - you'll soon find out how real it really is :st

Br Cornelius
When your paper dollars are completely worthless, I will exchange my silver for a .40 caliber pistol and when I'm in one desert and you're in the other, we'll see who drinks and who doesn't when someone tries to take our water.

Edit:  You're really having it both ways here.  In one reply you can understand conceptually what the problem is, and then you betray what you seem to understand with replies like this one.

Edited by Yamato, 26 September 2012 - 06:26 PM.

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#56    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:27 PM

View PostYamato, on 26 September 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

When your paper dollars are completely worthless, I will exchange my silver for a .40 caliber pistol and when I'm in one desert and you're in the other, we'll see who drinks and who doesn't when someone tries to take our water.
How has your Gold been a useful means of exchange in that example ? Have you used it to buy the water or are you trying to sneak in an extra element into the situation ?? Yes you have.

Br Cornelius

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#57    questionmark

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

How has your Gold been a useful means of exchange in that example ? Have you used it to buy the water or are you trying to sneak in an extra element into the situation ?? Yes you have.

Br Cornelius

It is just the same thought fallacy that makes him want to own gold, in the situation where money is worthless he better have the gun before, else he is not going to buy one but will have one rammed up his ar$e until he coughs out all the gold he has.

But hey, to everybody his illusions, right?

Edited by questionmark, 26 September 2012 - 06:32 PM.

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#58    ninjadude

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:38 AM

View Postand then, on 26 September 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

The inflation that politicians hide by not including the costs of food and fuel in these numbers you show.  Probably the two most important expenses of any household. And when the massive amounts of "liquidity" that have been put into the system finally have an effect we will either break EVERY ECONOMIC LAW that has existed to this point or we will experience a hyperinflation that will devastate the globe financially.

More fear. You should attend a support group. Wait that's the Republicans.

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#59    and then

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 02:43 AM

View Postninjadude, on 27 September 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

More fear. You should attend a support group. Wait that's the Republicans.
Knowing that smug people like yourself are going down just like everyone else makes a second term for Oby boy almost bearable.  Fools.

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  for what could be, the darkest age...

#60    acidhead

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 September 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I have said that fiat currency is the problem - so your arguments are misdirected.
All money is a consensual fiction - even gold. We simply agree to believe that it has some arbitrary value.

I just think you are fundamentally wrong in assuming that Gold is the magic solution to our current problems. It is as arbitrary as anything you decide to peg your money to. It would be equally valid to peg it to Iron - its just that one is shinner than the other.

I say peg it to something of real value such as the vale of work or food - things that have real meaning rather than fixating on a piece of metal with no intrinsic value beyond its role in electronics and jewelry.


It undermines capitalism since capitalism as it currently functions is based upon creating value out of sentiment and thin air which can only be done with a currency with no fixed value. It is capitalist speculation which has been partly responsible for expansion of the money supply.

Br Cornelius

Gold does have enormous value.  This is where you're being misdirected.  It holds more value than diamonds.  And for good reason.

We're not experiencing Capitalism.  The banks control the GOV.  We're beyond the free market.  Stop blaming Capitalism.  You sound like a dummy.... but I actually really like you BR..... we just disagree on this subject.

Edited by acidhead, 27 September 2012 - 03:51 AM.

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