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Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation


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#61    DieChecker

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 13 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

DieChecker, This is getting off topic, but if our young were prepared for the future shouldn't they have a good understanding of quantum physics, before leaving high school, and some knowledge of Nanotechnology ? We have radically changed how we teach math, because it is no longer about practical living and how to figure out the budget one must live on, but new math is about computers.   This may be great for the handful of students talented at math good for computers, but does not help the student understand reality and where our technology is taking us.   I am not saying this well, but understanding evolution is about more than knowing Darwin's theory, it is also understanding math and how science and math come together to help us understanding reality.   I look at my adult grandchildren, and think their education was good for 1950, but is not good even for the present, let alone the future.  I think back on raising my own son and daughter, and how I kept waiting for them be old enough for meaningful discussions and they are over 40 and still not ready for those discussions.   I am not sure how that happened, but I think programming our young for industry is not equal to preparing them for life?  Something appears to be missing and if we can figure what, perhaps we can make an important difference?

I certainly agree that Education should primarily be to make the student Functional in Life. And clearly not everyone is going to be a quantum Physicist, or even remotely talented in that way. The cookie cutter education that is being pushed now seems to me to be inadequite for Fuctional and Specialized. I'm not really sure what is to be done, but I know what has failed, so perhaps we can avoid the Past?

My wife's youngest Sister is a Freshman this year in High School, and she is getting horrible grades, because the Councilors put her in classes she has no background in and little skill in. In example, she took very basic Math in junior high and now got thrown into Medium level Algebra... because that is what the councilors said was needed to get a Mid level high school degree. I did not even know there was varying degrees of certificates from high schools before this. Well anyway, they told her that if she failed (Which she is...), she could just keep on taking the class over again till she passed. And I thought... why didn't they let her take the Pre-Algebra class to begin with and then she could pass both classes? The answer I got from her Mom was because this is what the councilors decided for her. :blink:  So instead of going step by step, with success. She is forced to failure over and over again till she somehow learns the math she was forced to skip. Seemed idiotic to me.

My 4 year old is very bright and is always asking questions. And I try to talk to her of the world and what is going on around us. So that when she gets into the world more, she will realize when people are throwing BS at her. I know that way too many kids get to school and just eat up like buttered bread whatever is taught to them, including from the other kids.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#62    me-wonders

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:32 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 13 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

I certainly agree that Education should primarily be to make the student Functional in Life. And clearly not everyone is going to be a quantum Physicist, or even remotely talented in that way. The cookie cutter education that is being pushed now seems to me to be inadequite for Fuctional and Specialized. I'm not really sure what is to be done, but I know what has failed, so perhaps we can avoid the Past?

My wife's youngest Sister is a Freshman this year in High School, and she is getting horrible grades, because the Councilors put her in classes she has no background in and little skill in. In example, she took very basic Math in junior high and now got thrown into Medium level Algebra... because that is what the councilors said was needed to get a Mid level high school degree. I did not even know there was varying degrees of certificates from high schools before this. Well anyway, they told her that if she failed (Which she is...), she could just keep on taking the class over again till she passed. And I thought... why didn't they let her take the Pre-Algebra class to begin with and then she could pass both classes? The answer I got from her Mom was because this is what the councilors decided for her. :blink:  So instead of going step by step, with success. She is forced to failure over and over again till she somehow learns the math she was forced to skip. Seemed idiotic to me.

My 4 year old is very bright and is always asking questions. And I try to talk to her of the world and what is going on around us. So that when she gets into the world more, she will realize when people are throwing BS at her. I know that way too many kids get to school and just eat up like buttered bread whatever is taught to them, including from the other kids.

I strongly suggest suing the school.  Not just for your sister's daughter but for all the children who have been and will be damaged by very bad counselor decisions.  I am not kidding. I so wish I had known it was possible to sue schools, because I would have sued for the damage done when a child is set up for failure.  I also wish I had the knowledge I gained in reading an old book about math.  In history you can study any part of history, separate of knowledge of all other parts of history, or Engilish lit is the same way.  Math is not like this.  Math must be learned step by step and putting a child is a math class before the child has mastered the previous steps, is a set up for failure and this is very damaging to a child's self esteem, and the grade point average required for college.  Seriously, look into suing the school , not just for the daughter, but every other child who will also be damanged if no one takes action.

This is such a good example what what has gone wrong with our nation!   Excuse me, I feel like a bomb about to explode.  I want to cry and scream, and know such emotions interfere with logic, but they also motivate us to take action when action should be taken.  And the action can not be throwing things around my room as I feel like doing, but IN THE PAST IT WAS PARENTS WHO GUIDED THE CHILD'S DECISIONS, NOT A COUNSELOR WHO MAY BE DEALING WITH TOO MANY STUDENTS NEEDING PREMATH, SO SOME OF THE STUDENTS ARE PUT IN THE WRONG CLASS, AND SET UP FOR FAILURE?  Like who knows why the counselor put her in the wrong class?  Prehaps the counselor does not have a good understanding of math, and does not understand students can not be jumped ahead of the level where they can function?  For whatever reason, the counselor made a bad decision, and everyone is acting as though the counselor is the one who should have this authority!!!   Hello, it is no skin off the counselors if your sister's daughter fails in life.  This person does not have the motivation that parents should have to see to it that a child has the best possible education, but we have reduced the parents to powerlessness.  Your sister can not address the principle of the school and get satisfactory results.  Well, may be she can, but I bet a months income this will not work, because the principle is more apt to defend the school than protect the child.   Before I knew we could sue schools, I went through this is a grandchild in my custody and the principle was powerless to help my granddaughter.  The school policy was to advance a child in math by grade, not by the child's ability to comprehend that level of math.  The principle knew my granddaughter was in the wrong class and needed help, but he could nothing about it.  If I had sued the school, school policy would have changed, and my granddauther would know the school was at fault, not her. But socially, look at we are doing as we seem to assume someone else has authority over decisions that effect our lives!!!

What starts the democracy of the US is a question of authority.  To whom does give his authority?   By the way, acceptence of God is vital to our liberty, because we should never ever give humans the authority they are assuming.   This not necessarily the God of Abraham who may be helpful, but is also problematic, but any God will do for trumping the authority of idiolts who should not have the authority we have given them.    Many years ago, school policy began trumping parental authority, and we should not tolerate this as passively as we have, but it is not just school policy functioning as greater authority over us, than our individual authority.  It is the Military Indusrtrial Complex, run by policy, and this means every aspect of our lives, from our visits to a doctor, to business contacts and of course government.  We are no longer in charge of our lives as we once were, and we are dealing with people who operate like computers, because they are controlled by policy, and do not function on a personal level as we all once did.

Many years ago I volunteered for senior services in a small town.  The receptionist knew just about everyone in town, and she resolved every problem that people brought to her.  Then in came the college trained professional, BUREAUCRAT, and she immediately took all authority from the receptionist and reduced her to no more than the person sitting at the desk and answering the phone.  She was not allowed to give people information or to advise them, but had to refer everyone to the ADMINISTRATOR or the right department.   Sarah left, and in a short time the whole operation was shut down.  Over night, authority was transfered from the people operating this small town service to college educated, imperonal bureaucrats who didn't live the town and did not know the people and how things were done in that town.   Then I studied Public Administration and Policy, and it was the most depressing period of my life.  I am speaking with a college education on the subject, not just opinion.

Help me.  How do I communicate how different things are today, from the way they once were?  Secretaries and receptionist knew everything, and today they know nothing except maybe which department you need to talk to.  And one of these impersonal, dumbed down professionals is determining what classes your sister's daughter should be in?   This is not what is good for humanity.   It is a computer run society, only the computer isn't a machine, but dehumanized and programmed humans.


#63    DieChecker

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:19 PM

I think the movement of Authority from the Parents of a child to the Institution that is public Education has been somewhat purposeful. The professional politicians that run the education system at the top, generally believe they are Elite and truely smarter at deciding what should be done for the children then the parents. And this might even be true. But the "smarter' politician that could possibly figure everything out and make everything work correctly, does not have the time to do so. So, these tasks are passed down to uninspired, uncaring, life-long government workers. Who are only sleep walking through their government functions. And that is where the mass of children get burned for life. If the parents were more involved, IMHO, I think that the uncaring of these government workers could be mitigated and children given a better chance. Unfortunately, society has not only told us for the children to always trust teachers, but has taught us that the parents can give away their responsibility and live less stressful lives with more time for themselves. Most parents today would have no clue where to begin even if they wanted to be involved in their kids schools decision processes.

Edited by DieChecker, 13 November 2012 - 11:20 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#64    me-wonders

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:10 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 13 November 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

I think the movement of Authority from the Parents of a child to the Institution that is public Education has been somewhat purposeful. The professional politicians that run the education system at the top, generally believe they are Elite and truely smarter at deciding what should be done for the children then the parents. And this might even be true. But the "smarter' politician that could possibly figure everything out and make everything work correctly, does not have the time to do so. So, these tasks are passed down to uninspired, uncaring, life-long government workers. Who are only sleep walking through their government functions. And that is where the mass of children get burned for life. If the parents were more involved, IMHO, I think that the uncaring of these government workers could be mitigated and children given a better chance. Unfortunately, society has not only told us for the children to always trust teachers, but has taught us that the parents can give away their responsibility and live less stressful lives with more time for themselves. Most parents today would have no clue where to begin even if they wanted to be involved in their kids schools decision processes.

Are we still on subject?  I do not want to mess up someone's thread, and not a lot of people are posting here.  I have tried to talk education issue, culture and bureaucratic issues for years, and there is a shocking disinterest in these matters, that determine what a nation should be like, and how should individuals expereince themselves and the world around them?

Like you I fancied someone knew the answers until we announce the 1970 youth crisis and I started doing some research.    The truth is, we are stumbling into our future, and the reason our children have recieved education for a technological society with unknown values, is no one knows what those values should be, or what is a good future.   We, all of us posting in these forums need to talk about what is happening and what we want to happen, and how to prepare our children.


#65    DieChecker

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 02:31 AM

The title of the Thread is "Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation", and what we are talking about is about the decline of the US, so I think we're still on Topic. Just discussing the details of a different reason for the Decline then the original OP.

Maybe it is not so bad. In another thread about how the US is 12th in Prosperity, one of the factors in that number is Education, and those people ranked the US as 2nd in the world. Which I find weird personnally, but hey, that is what that site/List has written down.

Or maybe the whole world is going into the toliet??

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#66    questionmark

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 14 November 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

The title of the Thread is "Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation", and what we are talking about is about the decline of the US, so I think we're still on Topic. Just discussing the details of a different reason for the Decline then the original OP.

Maybe it is not so bad. In another thread about how the US is 12th in Prosperity, one of the factors in that number is Education, and those people ranked the US as 2nd in the world. Which I find weird personnally, but hey, that is what that site/List has written down.

Or maybe the whole world is going into the toliet??

The fact that the US has an amazing downward mobility on the prosperity index should give you a hint.

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#67    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:28 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 14 November 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

The title of the Thread is "Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation", and what we are talking about is about the decline of the US, so I think we're still on Topic. Just discussing the details of a different reason for the Decline then the original OP.

Maybe it is not so bad. In another thread about how the US is 12th in Prosperity, one of the factors in that number is Education, and those people ranked the US as 2nd in the world. Which I find weird personnally, but hey, that is what that site/List has written down.

Or maybe the whole world is going into the toliet??
It might seem to rather suggest that while there may be a lot of Education going on, perhaps it's not the most effective at providing the kind of workforce that's needed to make a nation succesful and Prosperous ... ?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#68    me-wonders

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:00 PM

Before we speak of the decline of the US perhaps we should say something about rise?  This might be easier if we consider all the oil countries today, and how wealthy they became compared to when people rode camels and mass poverty was the norm, because they had nothing to trade on the world market, and therefore no money for plumbing, streets, building industry.  The US was more fortunate than these countries because it had the most mineral wealth in the world, next to the USSR, which did not have the technology to exploit its minerial weath.   To make a long story short, the US was a major exporter and has become a major important.  That means a trade deficit, you know, as in more money leaves the US than comes in.  We seem to be in complete denial of this reality.  However, the Obama administration is not, as we have opened new oil wells, and are working on exporting coal, and I am sure other things.  Our trade deficit is going down as we are exporting oil again.  The problem with this is, when the oil is gone it is gone, and not only do we use it to generate electricity, heat our homes, for air planes and cars, and does this relate to millions of jobs, but our national defense depends on oil, and if we got into a serious war when our resource was depleted, it could mean lossing the war.  That means sucking the last drop of oil from our soils now, is good for our economy, but not our futue.

We never had an economy as we have had since WWII.  The great variety of food we enjoy year round is possible largely because of food perservation technology developed during the war years.  And it was following WWII that we built the national highways to transport that food.  Those highways increased the sales of cars and campers!   The average family could now expect to travel for vacations, and motels and the complimenting businesses sprang up everywhere.  Our present hard times are so bad only in comparison to the amazing and unexpected economic growth we had following WWII.  Before this very, very few people earned enough to pay taxes.  People did not worry about income taxes because they didn't expect to earn enough to have to pay them.

When the USSR took control of Russia and the surrounding area, one of the first things it did was liberate women!  I remember when we laughed at pictures of communist women working like men.  Yuk, how unattractive was that!  Those poor women we forced to work like men, while in the US the hardest work we did was wash the dishes.  (this is over simplist, so don't assume you have a great argument.  Having to support a family on women's wages was not great, but the point is, few women were working outside of the homes, and even fewer were wearing men's clothes and doing men's work).  We go from women manning the factories during the war, to being forcesd out of work by company policy and husbands who didn't want their wives to work, to women's liberation!  Almost over night, our work force almost doubled, and as happened when the USSR did this, the national economy soared.  By this time we have the technology and industry to employ everyone.  However, as happened in the USSR, the divorce and abortion rates soar.  At least in the US, violence and crime also soars with women and children being both victims and perpetrators.  This cost.  In fact, we have gone from women doing a lot for free, to someone having to pay for everything they did for free, and while these women paid into social security, they are now draining it.

Remember the law of supply and demand?  When women went to work, households had two pay checks and this meant more families could buy houses and everything that goes with them, and this becomes industrial boom.  Of course every house had to have a TV and the US manufactured all the TV's but does not manufacture one TV today.  Some how we were able to almost doube our work force, and export industry.   That is amazing economic growth!  At the same time, banks could charge more and more interest, and they could really charge high interest by loaning money to third world countries, that they invested in inudstry and taking our jobs, which they needed to repay the loans, and we get government that is helping the banking industry and screwing us.   Now pay attention my love.  The cost of housing skyrockets, the cost of living in general skyrockets and it takes two pay checks to support a family.  Two pay checks to support a family, while the divorce rate and crime and violence rates increase, increasing the need for public assistance including the cost of jails and prisions.  

I say too much, but if we want to talk the decline of our nation, here a few things to talk about?  Compared to before WWII are things really that bad?  I don't think so, except the banking industry and public expenses have spun out of control.   The average person before WWII could not support this, so now we have the bill, but not the economic growth.  I see an adjustment to make, we could return to family values, and build a nation around families instead of banking.  Honoring the mother who is also a home maker with all the social responsibility that went with being a homemaker.  I am talking a very different culture than what we have now, but not different from the one we had, and not so different from the culture of Muslim countries.    Social order is a good thing, and may be we want to work that?  May be we want to make our lives good in away that is not just about money?   Of course if we want to assure we have a good standard of living. how about if we spend some time learning something about economics, so we can take back the responsibility for ourselves and our governent, that defined being an American.


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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:10 PM

View Post747400, on 14 November 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

It might seem to rather suggest that while there may be a lot of Education going on, perhaps it's not the most effective at providing the kind of workforce that's needed to make a nation succesful and Prosperous ... ?

Hey can this be corrected!  I meant to hit quote, not dislike.  I like what we said.

Who determines what is a good work force?  In the past was mieant someone with good character and education did meet this need.  What are the qualities of good force today?  And is life all about work?  Might humans want to pay attention to emotions and relationships and perhaps art?   When we evelate cultures of the past, how do we judge them?  Do you judge them by their art and public buildings and the such?  What makes a good life?  A million drones or something else?


#70    Mike D boy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

The possibility of being anything you want to be was what made the American Dream and my home state California thrived in the mid and late 20th century: the "California dream" was a hyper-version of the larger dream of an upper to middle class income, a positive lifestyle with a good paying profession, and strong liberty against a big government plus tolerance of sociocultural differences. The decline of both my nation and my state in the standard of living and both political and economic freedoms came to show we are not immune to decline like any geopolitical unit throughout world history has experienced, including superpowers and leading parts of the nation or world. We need the courage and optimism back to make the US not from sliding backward in global political reputation and for Californians to keep ourselves not slipping downward in the scale of the top states of the union. We did it before...let's do it again.

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#71    questionmark

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostTsa-La-Gie Oyate, on 14 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

The possibility of being anything you want to be was what made the American Dream and my home state California thrived in the mid and late 20th century: the "California dream" was a hyper-version of the larger dream of an upper to middle class income, a positive lifestyle with a good paying profession, and strong liberty against a big government plus tolerance of sociocultural differences. The decline of both my nation and my state in the standard of living and both political and economic freedoms came to show we are not immune to decline like any geopolitical unit throughout world history has experienced, including superpowers and leading parts of the nation or world. We need the courage and optimism back to make the US not from sliding backward in global political reputation and for Californians to keep ourselves not slipping downward in the scale of the top states of the union. We did it before...let's do it again.

Naturally it can be done again, as soon as 1-5% of the population stops their antisocial and greedy stance. Because if it would have been there in the 30s and 40s  there would have been no great America.

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:52 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 14 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Naturally it can be done again, as soon as 1-5% of the population stops their antisocial and greedy stance. Because if it would have been there in the 30s and 40s  there would have been no great America.

Well, in the 1920's a newspaper reported, "Given our know supply of oil and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic disaster and possibly war".  As we know, economic disaster hit and the world went to war.   When OPEC embargoed oil to the US the US experienced a recession.  I don't remember details well enough, but I think it would be helpful to have a better understanding of connection between oil and our economy.

I remember southern California in the early 1960.  I remember going to the employment office and walking out with my choice of job.  I had no ID, no resume, on verification of anything.  I lost that first job, because of a leg problem, went to the employment office and walked with another job.  It was so easy to get a job, I don't think anyone ever collected unemployment, and we didn't have welfare or food stamps.  We had work.  I would love for my family to have that today.  It would make a huge difference for all of us.

Edited by me-wonders, 15 November 2012 - 06:00 AM.


#73    questionmark

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:52 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 15 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Well, in the 1920's a newspaper reported, "Given our know supply of oil and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic disaster and possibly war".  As we know, economic disaster hit and the world went to war.   When OPEC embargoed oil to the US the US experienced a recession.  I don't remember details well enough, but I think it would be helpful to have a better understanding of connection between oil and our economy.

I remember southern California in the early 1960.  I remember going to the employment office and walking out with my choice of job.  I had no ID, no resume, on verification of anything.  I lost that first job, because of a leg problem, went to the employment office and walked with another job.  It was so easy to get a job, I don't think anyone ever collected unemployment, and we didn't have welfare or food stamps.  We had work.  I would love for my family to have that today.  It would make a huge difference for all of us.

Correct, and there was a government capable of keeping it up because it was collecting enough money to do so. To the contrary of tea party claims the tax rates have never been lower:

Posted Image

It is just that a few have amassed much of the goods and therefore must pay more taxes, which they are fighting with the aid of some who refuse to aknowledge the facts.

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

Okay, you got me looking for more charts, and I think this sight tells the story we want to talk about.


Quote

http://www.hugdaily....ginal-tax-rates

The chart above is a graphical representation of United States income disparity throughout history. It clearly shows the two spikes in disparity which led to the two worst economic times the United States has ever faced. In 1928 the disparity grew to a level that unbalanced the economy and pulled money away from the working class. By 1929 the Great Depression had begun.


When enough people can afford $200,000 houses that is what a house cost, and this rise in the cost of living is crushing to those on the bottom.  The book "Poverty and Riches" by Scott Nearing, Ph.D. published in 1916  says this, "Summing up, the cost of physical health and decency for a family of six in the anthracite region would be $718".  That is in the US, and that is the budget for the entire year.  If we could live on $718 a year, our laborers could compete for jobs, but today a family of one couldn't even make a month on $718 without assistance.   What happens when a country prices its laborers out of the market for labor?

Edited by me-wonders, 15 November 2012 - 04:16 PM.


#75    DieChecker

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:27 PM

I am usually very pro-Rich. But, I can see your point where if too much wealth goes toward where little of it is taxed, then there will be problems. I think it is wrong to Demonize the Rich, because most of them made that money, or helped their parents make that money. But, if they need to pay their fair share, I support fixing the tax laws to make that happen... equitability. Fairness. However, I don't think (Like some loonies suggest) that we can tax the Rich 90% and everyone else nothing and make it work. That is naive... totally naive.

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