Former Mossad chief ...

[keithisco]

Meir Dagan says he is more scared by the Israeli prime minister than the country's enemies.

The former head of the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad has delivered an extraordinary assault on the country’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, saying his policies left him fearing for the future of the state.

Meir Dagan accused Mr Netanyahu of being more dangerous than Iran in a speech at a rally in advance of next week’s general election, which has seen the combative leader fighting for his political life.

“Israel is a country surrounded by enemies, but the enemies do not scare me,” he said. “I am scared of our leadership, by the absence of vision and the loss of a path, the loss of determination. By the hesitance and the impasse

Source (The Telegraph): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11457725/Former-Mossad-chief-hits-out-at-Benjamin-Netanyahu.html

Not just a single voice of reason...

[RoofGardener]

Hmmm.... I dunno Keithisco.... you could almost read Meir Dagan's comments as accusing Netinyahoo as not being harsh enough !!.

[Space Commander Travis]

Well, his, and most previous Mossad chiefs', opinion of Bibi's paranoia assessment of the nuclear threat from Iran is, is as quoted as in the Jerusalem Post,

When Netanyahu said that Iran could sprint to a nuclear device in less than a year, Dagan said that the assessment was "bull****."

“It will take more time than that,” he said.

The former Mossad chief also ridiculed Netanyahu’s assertion that Iran posed a threat to the United States.

"Iranian missiles will never be able to hit the United States," Dagan said.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Ex-Mossad-chief-Dagan-pans-Netanyahus-bulls-speech-to-Congress-393162

[Buzz_Light_Year]

"Iranian missiles will never be able to hit the United States," Dagan said

.

Iran has stated that they successfully launched a satellite into orbit. If they can do that then re-entry can also be achieved.

[RoofGardener]

Well, either way you cut it, this is certainly a publicity setback for poor old Benjy.

As a bit of background for those too lazy to click on the link; Meir Dagan has been around the block a bit. Actually, as commander of the Barak Armoured Brigade, he probably DIDN'T go around the block. He probably blew it up, and drove straight over the rubble. He retired from the army after 30+ years with the rank of Major Catastrophe Misunderstanding General, and then spent around 10 years as director of Mossad.

I vaguely support Netinyahoo, in a "just don't ask me to name any of his policies" way. However, it seems to me that he'd be a bit of a silly billy if he didn't listen to what Meir Dagan has to say about Iranian missiles.

Edited March 9, 2015 by RoofGardener

[kartikg]

Well elections are around the corner.

[+and-then]

Well elections are around the corner.

Exactly. And while Dagan may be an experienced leader he isn't immune to the desire for political power. He'd probably be dead if it hadn't been for Bibi helping him when he desperately needed a liver transplant. Ungrateful in the extreme if you ask me.

[Phaeton80]

This puts the (literally) fanatical support given by congress in an even more interesting/disturbing light, contrast.

[+and-then]

This puts the (literally) fanatical support given by congress in an even more interesting/disturbing light, contrast.

I'm not sure how their actions surprise you. It is widely known that Americans by large majorities support the right of Israel to exist as it does and where it does. These pols are just playing to their base support.

[Phaeton80]

There is a significant difference between supporting the right of Israel's existence (which we all do, myself included), and the plethora of absolutely ridiculous fanatic standing ovations in response to warmongering (deceitful) statements uttered by Netanyahu (who has tried to scare the US/West into war with Iran since the 1980'ies, using thesame deceitful scare tactics). But ofcourse, in some people's mind, Netanyahu is Zionism. Zionism is the State of Israel. And the present day State of Israel is Biblical Israel and/or G*d Himself. Therefore, Netanyahu is Biblical Israel / G*d Himself. Therefore, critique against either one of them is anti semitism.

Seriously though.. caricature is the word that springs to mind. ..Fanaticism the key concept at play, and strong disconcertion the main resulting emotion. Crazy stuff.

[+and-then]

.

Iran has stated that they successfully launched a satellite into orbit. If they can do that then re-entry can also be achieved.

This single statement takes away all his credibility in the matter. Whatever his CV, he's just acting the part of a politician now.

[+and-then]

There is a significant difference between supporting the right of Israel's existence (which we all do, myself included), and the plethora of absolutely ridiculous fanatic standing ovations in response to warmongering (deceitful) statements uttered by Netanyahu (who has tried to scare the US/West into war with Iran since the 1980'ies, using thesame deceitful scare tactics). But ofcourse, in some people's mind, Netanyahu is Zionism. Zionism is the State of Israel. And the present day State of Israel is Biblical Israel and/or G*d Himself. Therefore, Netanyahu is Biblical Israel / G*d Himself. Therefore, critique against either one of them is anti semitism.

Seriously though.. caricature is the word that springs to mind. ..Fanaticism the key concept at play, and strong disconcertion the main resulting emotion. Crazy stuff.

You created a huge edifice there man. Frankly I know of no one who believes that exactly. US support for Netanyahu is based on the fact that a majority of Americans have an affinity toward the Jewish state and this PM in particular benefits in his inevitable comparison to our poor leadership. Americans can be extremely distracted and unconcerned with the outside world but they aren't stupid. They realize that the world is in a place it hasn't been in during the lifetime of most. They fear (and rightly) a nuclear armed Shiite regime in the M.E. Those in the wider world who do not are behaving irrationally. I believe that this regime WILL become a nuke state unless Israel destroys their infrastructure. In fact unless the world decides to take this problem seriously Iran would become a nuke state regardless. It's almost surreal that the Western world has become so politically divided that we seem willing to toy with world war out of spite for the differing viewpoints of our fellow citizens.

[Space Commander Travis]

There is a significant difference between supporting the right of Israel's existence (which we all do, myself included), and the plethora of absolutely ridiculous fanatic standing ovations in response to warmongering (deceitful) statements uttered by Netanyahu (who has tried to scare the US/West into war with Iran since the 1980'ies, using thesame deceitful scare tactics). But ofcourse, in some people's mind, Netanyahu is Zionism. Zionism is the State of Israel. And the present day State of Israel is Biblical Israel and/or G*d Himself. Therefore, Netanyahu is Biblical Israel / G*d Himself. Therefore, critique against either one of them is anti semitism.

Seriously though.. caricature is the word that springs to mind. ..Fanaticism the key concept at play, and strong disconcertion the main resulting emotion. Crazy stuff.

This is the beauty of fanaticism, they're completely immune to any kind of logical argument. In the mind of the fanatic, Bibi Netanyahu is the only political figure in the world whose word can be believed absolutely unquestioningly. (And the former president of Iran, ironically enough, at least when he makes rhetorical speeches about Wiping Israel off the Map.)

[Space Commander Travis]

You created a huge edifice there man. Frankly I know of no one who believes that exactly. US support for Netanyahu is based on the fact that a majority of Americans have an affinity toward the Jewish state and this PM in particular benefits in his inevitable comparison to our poor leadership. Americans can be extremely distracted and unconcerned with the outside world but they aren't stupid. They realize that the world is in a place it hasn't been in during the lifetime of most. They fear (and rightly) a nuclear armed Shiite regime in the M.E. Those in the wider world who do not are behaving irrationally. I believe that this regime WILL become a nuke state unless Israel destroys their infrastructure. In fact unless the world decides to take this problem seriously Iran would become a nuke state regardless. It's almost surreal that the Western world has become so politically divided that we seem willing to toy with world war out of spite for the differing viewpoints of our fellow citizens.

i was going to ask some questions in reply to this, but then I remembered that you're ignoring me, so there's absolutely no point, but it is quite laughable how you seal yourself in your own little bubble of delusion and believe that what you feel about Israel and Iran and Bibi Netanyahu is representative of what your fellow citizens feel.

[Occult1]

They realize that the world is in a place it hasn't been in during the lifetime of most. They fear (and rightly) a nuclear armed Shiite regime in the M.E. Those in the wider world who do not are behaving irrationally.

It's almost surreal that the Western world has become so politically divided that we seem willing to toy with world war out of spite for the differing viewpoints of our fellow citizens.

The Western world is becoming more skeptical of fearmongering tactics. The same kind of discourse lead to a pointless invasion of Iraq in 2003, now you are advocating for a similar scenario in Iran. Hypothetical nuke that will lead to an hypothetical destruction of Israel.

As you pointed out, Americans are not stupid. They elected a President that would finally stop the neocons war machine. What you call 'lack of leadership' I consider to be a rational, mindful approach. Which is why Obama doesn't put up well with Bibi. While he is trying to negotiate a deal with Iran that could settle the issue and bring Iran back in the Internatinal community, Netanyahu is trying to disrupt the process with fearmongering and no alternative but.. war and destruction. Again. While it's true that a majority of Jews in the US are supportive of Bibi, it is no longer so with the youth. They are much more critical of the Israeli regime, which offers some hope for the future.

''Analysts say that there are numerous signs that a war-weary U.S. public is growing increasingly skeptical of Israel's actions, from the push for military escalation with Iran to the brutal 50-day war on Gaza last summer.

A poll (pdf) released Tuesday by CNN and ORC finds that a majority of people in the U.S. think that GOP leaders did the "wrong thing by inviting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress without first notifying the president that they would do so."

Source: http://www.commondre...strophic-speech

Link poll: http://i2.cdn.turner...etanyahu[1].pdf

The Jewish Voice For Peace: Young, Jewish and Proud.

Link: http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Edited March 10, 2015 by samus

[Occult1]

Double post.

Edited March 10, 2015 by samus

[Phaeton80]

You created a huge edifice there man. Frankly I know of no one who believes that exactly. US support for Netanyahu is based on the fact that a majority of Americans have an affinity toward the Jewish state and this PM in particular benefits in his inevitable comparison to our poor leadership. Americans can be extremely distracted and unconcerned with the outside world but they aren't stupid. They realize that the world is in a place it hasn't been in during the lifetime of most. They fear (and rightly) a nuclear armed Shiite regime in the M.E. Those in the wider world who do not are behaving irrationally. I believe that this regime WILL become a nuke state unless Israel destroys their infrastructure. In fact unless the world decides to take this problem seriously Iran would become a nuke state regardless. It's almost surreal that the Western world has become so politically divided that we seem willing to toy with world war out of spite for the differing viewpoints of our fellow citizens.

The 'edifice' was made to make a point, Im sure you know what it was. You know the problem discussing things with you AT, seems to be that the lionpart of what you believe is based on very little facts/rational, and an abundance of blind, fanatic support.

It also seems asthough congress is actually populated with an impressive number of people just like you. Which has some very, very serious implications.

[+and-then]

The 'edifice' was made to make a point, Im sure you know what it was. You know the problem discussing things with you AT, seems to be that the lionpart of what you believe is based on very little facts/rational, and an abundance of blind, fanatic support.

It also seems asthough congress is actually populated with an impressive number of people just like you. Which has some very, very serious implications.

I agree with you wholly. I AM primarily a faith based opinionated individual. You on the other hand seem willing to use hyperbole for your own purposes when creating such an image as you did. It just isn't accurate. The fact that a large number of legislators feel the same tells me that I'm hardly "irrational". Using terms like fanatic cheapens the word I think. I am a firm believer in my cause as are you. The difference is that I take your stance for what it is - your personal world view, rather than implying you are somehow dangerously mentally unstable. The tone of discussion around here is in desperate need of a little civility - including my own - and I am trying to make that change.

[Phaeton80]

A petition on whitehouse.gov calling for charges to be filed against the 47 senators who sent an open letter to the leaders of Iran, possibly in violation of the Logan Act, has collected more than 165,000 signatures in less than two days.

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=29564985

Edited March 12, 2015 by Phaeton80

[Phaeton80]

I agree with you wholly. I AM primarily a faith based opinionated individual. You on the other hand seem willing to use hyperbole for your own purposes when creating such an image as you did. It just isn't accurate. The fact that a large number of legislators feel the same tells me that I'm hardly "irrational". Using terms like fanatic cheapens the word I think. I am a firm believer in my cause as are you. The difference is that I take your stance for what it is - your personal world view, rather than implying you are somehow dangerously mentally unstable. The tone of discussion around here is in desperate need of a little civility - including my own - and I am trying to make that change.

I can appreciate that AT; yet, imho granting unconditional support to any given entity is unwise per defintion. Scripture does not, and never has promoted blind faith. Especially regarding mundaine, earthly entities, including the Jewish People (whom I love and support), including the present day Zionist ruled Israeli State. Fanaticism is blind support. Irrationality can be equalled to basing your opinion(s), your actions not on facts but on mere beliefs, even if those beliefs directly contradict verifiable facts, and even if that means rationalizing blatant crimes / initiating wars based on words of deceit, killing innocent people in general. The former (fanaticism) foments the latter (irrational behaviour), which form a dangerously volatile mix; with a high potency to result in extremely inhumane situations.

We are talking about thesame mindset that facilitated the inquisitions, the same mindset that facilitated Nazism, and thesame mindset that is facilitating 'Muslim extremism' today. This unconditional support is such, that these individuals have no trouble at all reconciling raping women, murdering innocent civilians, even beheading 'fellow' Muslims.. with the teachings of scripture. Just like those perpetrating the crimes of the inquisition did not have any trouble reconciling their murderous (ungodly) policies with scripture.

I have never stated or implied you are mentally unstable. I have voiced my concern however, regarding your literal blind support for the Zionist ideology, for the Israeli State. This is simply because I honestly am concerned, I mean no offence when doing so. Its just, the extreme level of bias prevalent throughout your different positions in context of Israel can be very frustrating.

[Degen]

Exactly. And while Dagan may be an experienced leader he isn't immune to the desire for political power. He'd probably be dead if it hadn't been for Bibi helping him when he desperately needed a liver transplant. Ungrateful in the extreme if you ask me.

He is ungrateful because he gave him a liver but wont let him kill thousands? /sarcasm What a monster

[+and-then]

He is ungrateful because he gave him a liver but wont let him kill thousands? /sarcasm What a monster

He helped find a liver in the US for him Degen, he didn't "give" him one - just to keep it straight. And the problem with black and white characterizations is for every remark you make about Israel's "murders or killings, there is an opposite and justifiable view that they were warranted due to circumstances. See how that works? Try to make a reasonable argument and we can discuss not insult.

[Degen]

He helped find a liver in the US for him Degen, he didn't "give" him one - just to keep it straight. And the problem with black and white characterizations is for every remark you make about Israel's "murders or killings, there is an opposite and justifiable view that they were warranted due to circumstances. See how that works? Try to make a reasonable argument and we can discuss not insult.

Ok he h elped him find one, still doesnt make what you said any better.

[+and-then]

Ok he h elped him find one, still doesnt make what you said any better.

You (and others) believe Israel is guilty of mass murder and you cannot or will not even entertain the possibility that they are acting reasonably to the attacks made against them. The logic usually follows that: Israel is illegitimate, have no right to be on "Palestinian land" and therefore anything the Palis do is okay because they are "occupied"? Is that an accurate statement of your belief?

[Degen]

You (and others) believe Israel is guilty of mass murder and you cannot or will not even entertain the possibility that they are acting reasonably to the attacks made against them. The logic usually follows that: Israel is illegitimate, have no right to be on "Palestinian land" and therefore anything the Palis do is okay because they are "occupied"? Is that an accurate statement of your belief?

No its rather inaccurate. Find me one example of each of me saying what you are accusing me of. I'll wait. And you think it is unreasonable for countries like say, iran, to say they are going to defend themselves against the repeated threats that come from israel about them wanting to attack you? I can go find you examples of it if you like as ive done previously on another thread or possibly this one for either you or joc. Can you do the same?

Edited March 14, 2015 by Degen