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Christians and oppression


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#1    Ever Learning

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:41 PM

i often read people comments that they show no sympathy to christians who are oppressed, because christians have a history for oppression. that being said i do hear sympathy from alot of non christians.
as a christian i have never took part in a holywar or supported any of the ones before i was born.
i have never taken it upon my self to own slaves and try to support my actions with the bible and dont see the logic of the ones who did before me.
i have never burnt a witch.
i have never walked door to door preaching.
as far as im aware ive never said a UMer was going to hell.
i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

much love from an unoppressed christian

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#2    Rlyeh

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

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No, no one does but then I've noticed some think oppression is being denied the right to persecute others.


#3    Coffey

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:34 PM

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I personally don't care what religion or beliefs people follow/have.

Religion doesn't cause wars or hatred, people do. It's people who abuse religion and use it as an excuse to do what they want that are the problem. So I don't judge people by their religion, I judge them by their actions.

Edited by Coffey, 10 April 2013 - 01:35 PM.

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#4    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:02 AM

It has been a long time since i met an oppressed person, although  know from reading that they still exist. Oppression of others is a destructive trait no matter who is being oppresed. It is destructive to te oppressed and to the oppresor because it warps a productive and progresive society. My somewhat controversial view is that no one can be oppressed unless they are somewhat complicit in allowing themselves to be oppressed.  A person can resist oppression, even if that creates dangerous consequences. Failure to resist is what enables the oppression to exist. A society should reduce oppression where ever possible, but it also requires every individual to resist personal oppression at every level.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

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#5    tapirmusic

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:11 AM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 10 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

because christians have a history for oppression.

??

Don't believe everything hollywood tells you.Christians haven't 'oppressed' anyone more than any other group of people have in the last 2000 years.


#6    Zaphod222

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:22 AM

View PostCoffey, on 10 April 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Religion doesn't cause wars or hatred, people do. It's people who abuse religion and use it as an excuse to do what they want that are the problem. So I don't judge people by their religion, I judge them by their actions.

To the contrary, religion does cause wars. In fact, most of the current wars in the world have a religious component.

That said, of course you can not control beliefs. But religious beliefs should not be excempt from critical discussion, just as other ideologies are not.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#7    Zaphod222

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:24 AM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 10 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

i often read people comments that they show no sympathy to christians who are oppressed, because christians have a history for oppression. that being said i do hear sympathy from alot of non christians.
as a christian i have never took part in a holywar or supported any of the ones before i was born.
i have never taken it upon my self to own slaves and try to support my actions with the bible and dont see the logic of the ones who did before me.
i have never burnt a witch.
i have never walked door to door preaching.
as far as im aware ive never said a UMer was going to hell.
i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

much love from an unoppressed christian

Of course you don´t deserve oppression because of your personal beliefs. On the other hand, you should not demand that society changes to conform to your beliefs. To your credit, you don´t do that.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#8    Coffey

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:01 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 11 April 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

To the contrary, religion does cause wars. In fact, most of the current wars in the world have a religious component.

That said, of course you can not control beliefs. But religious beliefs should not be excempt from critical discussion, just as other ideologies are not.


That's wrong, the wars are being caused by people. Non of these religions are telling people to go to war.

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#9    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

View Posttapirmusic, on 11 April 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

??

Don't believe everything hollywood tells you.Christians haven't 'oppressed' anyone more than any other group of people have in the last 2000 years.
I believe the last of the original old pagans in Europe were slaughtered and survivors forcibly converted to Christianity in Sweden during the 12th Century. From then until the late 18th century was it possible not to be a Christian in Europe? Could anybody, peasant or noble have renounced Christianity, or even expressed even a small amount of doubt? Everybody knows that the answer is NO. And were there any pagans in Europe during this time "oppressing" Christians? No, because they had all been slaughtered or converted. In some parts of Europe even today, not to be seen going to a Christian church at least once a week will cause bad feelings towards that person. The only group of people doing any religious repressing of people in Europe, and beyond, these last 2000 years have been Christians. No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 11 April 2013 - 10:04 AM.


#10    Ever Learning

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 11 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I believe the last of the original old pagans in Europe were slaughtered and survivors forcibly converted to Christianity in Sweden during the 12th Century. From then until the late 18th century was it possible not to be a Christian in Europe? Could anybody, peasant or noble have renounced Christianity, or even expressed even a small amount of doubt? Everybody knows that the answer is NO. And were there any pagans in Europe during this time "oppressing" Christians? No, because they had all been slaughtered or converted. In some parts of Europe even today, not to be seen going to a Christian church at least once a week will cause bad feelings towards that person. The only group of people doing any religious repressing of people in Europe, and beyond, these last 2000 years have been Christians. No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....
sticks and stones, quote the historical texts that prove your claims.

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#11    redhen

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:58 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 11 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I believe the last of the original old pagans in Europe were slaughtered and survivors forcibly converted to Christianity in Sweden during the 12th Century.

Do you have a source for that? The most notable incident I am aware of is The  massacre of Verden  which has been interpreted as a Christian pogrom against pagans but it could also be seen as a typical consequence of rebellion against a dark age king.

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From then until the late 18th century was it possible not to be a Christian in Europe?

Not so, there were many Jews and Muslims living in Europe at this time.

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Could anybody, peasant or noble have renounced Christianity, or even expressed even a small amount of doubt? Everybody knows that the answer is NO.

Granted, but we also know what the penalty for apostatizing in Islam was and still is - death.

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And were there any pagans in Europe during this time "oppressing" Christians? No, because they had all been slaughtered or converted.

True, but Christians certainly were "oppressed" by other religious members, i.s. Muslim invasions and conquests. In this respect Catholicism was the glue that united Europe against Muslim invaders.

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In some parts of Europe even today, not to be seen going to a Christian church at least once a week will cause bad feelings towards that person.

Bad feelings? Really? Thus we should persecute Christians because we feel bad? I think you're stretching the sense of the word oppression.

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The only group of people doing any religious repressing of people in Europe, and beyond, these last 2000 years have been Christians. No doubt an uncomfortable truth that will be met with a basilisk stare and total denial from certain posters.....

So we'll just ignore all the Muslim invasions and kidnapping of Christians in Europe for the last 1300 years shall we? Not to mention the most recent Muslim violence in Europe against Christians, Jews, gays, women ....


#12    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 11 April 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

sticks and stones, quote the historical texts that prove your claims.
But this is common knowledge! Do you really deny any opression of non Christians in Europe over many centuries? By asking to provide texts to prove reality you are doing no different to asking for texts to prove that the Thirty Years War happened. If I had made a claim about a specific and obscure incident, then ask for proof, I would not argue with that, but you are guilty of the old technique of wilfull ignorance and sidestepping. Pagans were slaughtered and converted against their will, witches were burnt, people could not be seen not to be Christian. These are facts. If you chose to deny reality then that is your affair.


#13    redhen

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 11 April 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

@ redhen. I will not counter all your points as they are deliberate obfuscations.

I do not obfuscate, I use logic, reasoning and argumentation. You made claims, I asked for evidence. That's the way an argument works.

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This thread is not about Muslims or Jews, and I did not mention them. Jews, after all Europe had become Christian being the main victims of appalling oppression. It should be clear that I am talking about native Europeans not being able to break away from Christianity. Stop obfuscating! As for Muslim invasions, well, to me they are simply other people of the book, and there invasion is not really part of what this thread is about, again you obfuscate!.

Ask any scholar of the Humanities and they will tell you that context is everything. I put your statements into historical context.

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You also put words in my mouth as I never said Christians should be persecuted, quote were I said that.

Well the title of this thread is Christians derserve to be oppressed? (sic) and you seemed to defend this claim.


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You Christian fundamentalists live in a fantasy world, blind to history, reality and commonsense. Most of your, and others, answers to these religious matters are nothing more than lies and insults.

People on the UM forum know that I not a Christian fundamentalist, I am not even a Christian. I just believe that the truth is important and ethics are important.

p.s. what does the Cyrillic text in your profile quote mean? Are you Russian?


#14    Doug1o29

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:52 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 10 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?
No one deserves oppression.

That being said, it is a little hard to believe that a group to which the majority of people in America belong, is actually an oppressed minority.
Doug

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#15    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 10 April 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

i often read people comments that they show no sympathy to christians who are oppressed, because christians have a history for oppression. that being said i do hear sympathy from alot of non christians.
as a christian i have never took part in a holywar or supported any of the ones before i was born.
i have never taken it upon my self to own slaves and try to support my actions with the bible and dont see the logic of the ones who did before me.
i have never burnt a witch.
i have never walked door to door preaching.
as far as im aware ive never said a UMer was going to hell.
i have never been oppressed but do you think me, and others like me derserve oppresion?

much love from an unoppressed christian
No one deserve oppression. But a Christian should pay very close attention to who is opressed and who is not these days, and what groups have actually done the oppression in the last 500 years.

I do not agree with the seperatiion of the religion from the actions of the people. Not all actions represent the people of the religion as a whole, but it definantly taints it.

There are a small number of oppressed Christians mostly in Muslim countries, but as a whole nowadays Christians mostly do the oppressing. From gay rights to genocide of the native Americans. Does that make you personalky responsible... No. But when you join a group and take on the label don't be surprised if you then are associated with these wrongs.

On a side note.... If one is going to part of a group, there should be some sort of internal accountability that that person has for the actions of a group. It's like buying stocks. I refuse to own stock in socially irresponsible companies. If I say owned stock in wal mart, that makes me part owner of wal Mart and complicit in there actions. If I did own it it would be to change it. I'm not rich enough to do that.

If I were Christian I would be active against the Christians that give christianity a bad name. Paranoid Android does a great job. To me people like him are ideal Christians.

Edited by Seeker79, 11 April 2013 - 06:48 PM.

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