Goth culture and beliefs

[Saint]

Hi.

Any advice or links will be useful. I am trying to discover more about the Goth culture after my daughter expressed an interest in embracing it.

I am very against the idea but accept that the preconceived ideas I have about Goths (heavy music, depressing/suicidal thoughts and tendencies/devil worship/excessive piercings/anarchic life view) may be way off the mark. Can anyone point me to an objective source that can explain what it's all about please?

[CaitSith]

Try www.vampirefreaks.com to see what modern goths are like. But their are different kinds of goths to think about, their not all so depressing, sometimes its just a style or interest in darker lifestyles. A lot of metal band groupies dress all in black and are mistaken for goths.

Personally I generally wear black and like the darker things in life, I'm a pagan so that might be undeservingly be called devil worship. I also am married work full time to support my family and try to raise my son the best I can. Being of a gothic nature doesn't always lead to no where but it might embarass you at family get togethers. They will get over it, just let your daughter be herself. If its a phase, it will pass, if its not, then you will just have to trust that you've implanted good morals in her head

[Saint]

...... but it might embarass you at family get togethers.

not at all worried about THAT, thanks Leviathan. And thanks for the info thus far. Tel me, if you can or will, when did your interest in the Goth thing start? I am keen not to impinge upon my daughter's development but don't want her getting involved in something she may not be able to cope with or with people who may negatively influence her.

[Bella-Angelique]

Goth subculture

[Saint]

Thanks very much, Bella-Angelique - I read this article yesterday and wasn't happy about the suicidal and self-harm tendencies discussed. Need to read more. Need to hear from those who practice it.

[CaitSith]

I dunno really, I've always been into darker things I guess. I would say at about fifteen. I never got into the whole wearing make up and all that, but I did dye my hair black. It all extends from my love of horror movies as a kid, especially vampires and werewolves, midievil stuff, art and the supernatural. Like I said though, their are different gothic cultures and the skater culture, emo culture, metal culture, and S&M culture can all be tied to the gothic culture.

[BurnSide]

I went through that goth stage as a teen. And just about everyone i know went through somesort of stage like that. It all means the same thing in the end, whether it's goth or raver or punk or just plain weird. She's just looking for her place, and is very confused about who she is and what is around her. She's trying to be individual and trying to break the mold of what she feels she should conform to. In my opinion, it shouldn't be the 'goth' culture that you take an interest in, only your daughters life in general. Just guide her as a mother does, but don't force her to share her life with you. (Although this is silly advice, i'm sure you know much better than i how to parent. )

Although i may be completely wrong of course, i'm only speaking from personal experience and i have observed that all kids go through that stage in some way at some time. Personally, when i went through that goth stage, it was more because i wanted to be different than actually being interested in the lifestyle.

Just thought i'd add my cents.

[Bella-Angelique]

Personally, when i went through that goth stage, it was more because i wanted to be different than actually being interested in the lifestyle.

Hmm. Perhaps in a Jungian way the solution was given in front page post today.

If she could take lessons at a psychic school, now that would make her different and special and feel more empowered too possibly.

I think if my mother had offered lessons to me as a teen I would have jumped at going, but perhaps that was too much of another time.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Bella-Angelique

[Saint]

You make a good point Burnside re wanting to be different rather than being interested in the 'movement' per se. And when you went through the stage you weren't encouraged to cut yourself or take drugs by any peers or anything were you?

Just being a bit of a nervous mother here.

Your advice isn't silly. Thanks for participating!!

P.S. Anyone who thinks being a parent means you know how to be one is wrong - we know no more than the people without kids, I feel.

[BurnSide]

Thanks very much, Bella-Angelique - I read this article yesterday and wasn't happy about the suicidal and self-harm tendencies discussed. Need to read more. Need to hear from those who practice it.

You make a good point Burnside re wanting to be different rather than being interested in the 'movement' per se. And when you went through the stage you weren't encouraged to cut yourself or take drugs by any peers or anything were you?

While i was never suicidal, i did cut myself up in that phase. Still bear a few scars. Nothing at all serious, just scratches.

Man, i'm so happy i now know how much of a dumbass i was as a kid.

Alot of my friends did too. I have no idea why really. Were we just all copying each other, monkey see-monkey do? No, there's more to it than that. I did it just to see what it looked like, and to feel it, emotionally and physically. As a teenager, sometimes it's an extremely confusing time and it simply becomes incredibly difficult to make sense of the world around you. The self-harm was an outlet to focus on one thing, i suppose. It's difficult to explain.

But it was never done out of the intention of hoping to cause serious harm, just to leave the marks.

I would suggest if you see that happening, don't ignore it, try to understand why she is doing it and help her find other outlets.

As for drugs, it did occur around me but i was never tempted by them.

Peer pressure though was something that i had to face on a constant basis, but fortunately it seemed to be the 'normal' kids who didn't go through that little weird phase that was doing them. None of my friends who were like me ever seemed to be interested in drugs at all.

Man, i can definately wait awhile before having a teen.

Edited August 3, 2006 by BurnSide

[Shigeru]

I went through that goth stage as a teen. And just about everyone i know went through somesort of stage like that. It all means the same thing in the end, whether it's goth or raver or punk or just plain weird. She's just looking for her place, and is very confused about who she is and what is around her. She's trying to be individual and trying to break the mold of what she feels she should conform to. In my opinion, it shouldn't be the 'goth' culture that you take an interest in, only your daughters life in general. Just guide her as a mother does, but don't force her to share her life with you. (Although this is silly advice, i'm sure you know much better than i how to parent. )

Although i may be completely wrong of course, i'm only speaking from personal experience and i have observed that all kids go through that stage in some way at some time. Personally, when i went through that goth stage, it was more because i wanted to be different than actually being interested in the lifestyle.

Just thought i'd add my cents.

I totaly agree. Take an interest in your daughter's life and her interests. It's probably just an attempt at seeking out who she really is, and what she is and is not comfortable with. I found out a lot about other people and myself by doing things differently.

Just make sure that when you speak with her or observe her that you pay attention to what she tells you AND what she doesn't.

[Celumnaz]

BurnSide, those comments you made are worth more than 2 cents. Great points.

my 2cp

There's as many different types of "goths" as there are in any group of people... in trying to be unique and different, they all end up looking basically the same though. I couldn't imagine a kid from like ethiopia going goth though, so I think it also has to do with a more "affluent" culture that needs to invent hardships for themselves. Kids want the easy way alot of the time, and in planning for the future they see people who have had hardships as getting respect or aid and such, and want that for themselves... but living in the society we do, there aren't that many "hardships" in that way, so they're invented and peer-supported.

When it comes my turn with my kids, I'll try to redirect into something more productive.

Also, as BurnSide said, and GREAT advice: "In my opinion, it shouldn't be the 'goth' culture that you take an interest in, only your daughters life in general."

So between the two, if my kids are Still interested when they get that age... I'll ask that he come to me to do any of his piercings or tats, have some good tips for holding hair in odd positions... and I know a bit about applying makeup.... Then I'll be sure to tell his friends his dad helped him put on his lipstick.

Oh, and having talks about suicidal thoughts, drugs, sex, and all that good stuff... well... I guess that would fall under what BurnS said.

[OlDrippy34]

I went through that phase in high school too. Now those people are among the people I hate most in the whole world. There's no reason you have to dress or act a certain way to maintain an interest in the things that are supposedly inherent to a particular group. I still listen to heavy metal, I still read books about demons and serial killers because they interest me...only difference is now I don't do EXCLUSIVELY those things or dress any particular way. I'll tell you now, belonging to any particular group like that is bound to limit your interests and experiences, if anything. Just as an example, when I was in my goth phase, I ONLY listened to heavy metal. My favorite bands were Metallica, Megadeth, Iced Earth, Dream Theater, Iron Maiden, stuff like that. Now, years later, having escaped that label and that lifestyle, I still enjoy that music...but not as much as I enjoy Ween, Prince, Funkadelic, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Lamb of God.

If anything, you should hope it will just be a phase.

By the way, even though you're doing your research and being in general responsible about it, if she does decide to go through with it...expect resentment, however contrived or undeserved. Goth kids with nothing real to complain about usually turn on their parents, regardless of their relationship, be it loving or otherwise.

[CaitSith]

I went through that phase in high school too. Now those people are among the people I hate most in the whole world. There's no reason you have to dress or act a certain way to maintain an interest in the things that are supposedly inherent to a particular group. I still listen to heavy metal, I still read books about demons and serial killers because they interest me...only difference is now I don't do EXCLUSIVELY those things or dress any particular way. I'll tell you now, belonging to any particular group like that is bound to limit your interests and experiences, if anything. Just as an example, when I was in my goth phase, I ONLY listened to heavy metal. My favorite bands were Metallica, Megadeth, Iced Earth, Dream Theater, Iron Maiden, stuff like that. Now, years later, having escaped that label and that lifestyle, I still enjoy that music...but not as much as I enjoy Ween, Prince, Funkadelic, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Lamb of God.

If anything, you should hope it will just be a phase.

By the way, even though you're doing your research and being in general responsible about it, if she does decide to go through with it...expect resentment, however contrived or undeserved. Goth kids with nothing real to complain about usually turn on their parents, regardless of their relationship, be it loving or otherwise.

Just checking my facts but did you say you hate people who dress and act a certain way, or like specific kind of music? People are who they are and enjoy experiencing their own specific lifestyle, expressing their own person. I don't think they deserve hate, but respect for being themselves, not just trying to be cool (I dont remember the gothkids being the cool kids when I was in school, in fact they seemed less fake than most.) If its a phase it will pass no harm no foul, if its not then maybe you should warn your daughter about judgemental hate based on appearance....

[BurnSide]

Thanks Celumnaz, i appreciate that. And some fantastic points yourself, i had to giggle at the thought of helping your son put on lipstick. But it's a very valid point. Just about the worst thing you could do would be to look upon your kid like he or she is a werido freak just ebcause of how they want to look. Accept them and they will respect you too.

[Saint]

I think Ol'Drippy was saying that people who embrace a certain style to the exclusion of all else, narrow-mindedly, arouse his ire.

Thanks for the feedback received so far. I obviously am concerned and interested in the way my daughter develops and wouldn't want her channeling her (very positive) energies into something dark and depressing.

Will give the matter more thought, but please, keep the comments coming. They are all useful!

Thanks!

[OlDrippy34]

I think Ol'Drippy was saying that people who embrace a certain style to the exclusion of all else, narrow-mindedly, arouse his ire.

Yea verily. I think South Park pretty much hit the nail on the head when they talked about the goth kids: "If you want to be a nonconformist, all you have to do is listen to the same music we do and dress exactly like we do." It's not good to limit one's self in that respect, goth kids just happen to be incredibly annoying about it. It's fine and dandy to be "weird," and I know many people would consider ME weird. But there's a difference between being eccentric and being weird for the sake of being weird, which is what annoys me a lot.

[CaitSith]

Yea verily. I think South Park pretty much hit the nail on the head when they talked about the goth kids: "If you want to be a nonconformist, all you have to do is listen to the same music we do and dress exactly like we do." It's not good to limit one's self in that respect, goth kids just happen to be incredibly annoying about it. It's fine and dandy to be "weird," and I know many people would consider ME weird. But there's a difference between being eccentric and being weird for the sake of being weird, which is what annoys me a lot.

I see, I never knew any gothkids like that really. Most of them were pretty deep and quite social with just about anything. There weren't standards like that with the people I ran with. Trey Parker and Matt Stone are hillarious, but they exagerate cultures for humor, not all black people have a bass guitar in their basement and Catholics dont pray to a giant spider. Still you gotta love it.

[starlitkate]

I would definetly just let her try things out for herself. If you don't like it then just pray and pray that she grows out of it like most people do as they get out of they're teen era. And if she dont then embarce her with as much love as before. Just because she changes doesn't mean her love for you does-no matter how much rebellious she gets. Cuz trust me, if you let her embarce her change then the first time you stomp your foot down she is gonna resist and you just have to be stong and hold to your word. If she starts getting alot of peircings and you don't want her to have them. Then make compromise. Say something like 'You can have the navel,nose if you don't peirce your lip,tongue, or any other area she would have no need to peirce at that age'. She may hate you but it's your house and your rules. Give her room to grow but remember to keep orders for her or she will only rebel and hate you when you try to enforce them later on. But if you are a loving mother and always have your arms open for her then when she is in her worst moments then she will always come back to you. I didn't have a mother that accepted when I studied Wicca and when I went thru my Goth stage-so I'm only saying cuz this is how I want to view things when my daughter gets older cuz I've gone thru it & I know what it's like to move across country at 17 after your family disowns you for studying wicca and doing things my mother didn't agree with and I would never want to have to force that on my daughter.

Edited August 4, 2006 by starlitkate

[gothic_dark_angel]

i WOULD RECOMMENDED YOU GO ON YAHOO AND TYPE IN "UNDERSTANDING YOUR GOTHIC TEEN"

READ ARTICLE IT MAY HELP

[Grandpa Greenman]

I never see Goths at Pagan rituals. I guess we are all too old and fuddy duddy.

[truth's last stand]

There's actually a goth church in my gf's city (I think it's called "Wake the Dead"), so you definitely can't pigeonhole this sort of thing. I recall my "dark/goth" phase where all I listened to was Marilyn Manson and Slayer, wore black and only black, smoked illegal substances a couple of times...but you can't confuse a lifestyle with a phase, and therein lies the rub, so to speak. All children have a time of rebellion, but the thing to see is if it lasts, or fades with age. But I guess I can only go by what I did, since I'm a 23 year old college student, and I don't exactly have rebellious children. Yet.

[+Link of Hyrule]

The Goth Church

Goth rituals are easily identifiable. They attend a church gathering of sorts (called a goth night club) once a week, on a Friday or a Saturday night (particularly religious ones, or those testing out their constitution will attend both nights). At this gathering, they engage in a sort of unholy communion by drinking red wine and eating potato chips. Then comes a fairly loose ritual of either drinking or dancing, or simply engaging in fellowship with other goth believers.

Depending on the particular sect to which the night club is operated by, the hymns can often range between anything from 80's electro-rock, to modern-day dark ambient music, to Industrial, or perhaps even Punk. Some progressive goth clubs eve play electronic beats.

Ritual clothing usually involves large quantities of PVC or leather, and with main colours ranging from dark black to light black. Particularly colorful goths may choose to have a tiny bit of blood-red or deep-purple as well, as long as it doesn't offset the black. Fishnet is a popular choice as well, and we cannot forget the ever popular leather corset. Black boots (the chunkier the better) are standard. Jewelry is common for both men and women, with spiked collars/wristbands, ankh necklaces, and skull finger-rings the most popular choices. Makeup is not uncommon, even amongst the men, with much foundation put on to make them look as vampyric as possible.

There is no common set of beliefs amongst goths, except perhaps to shun anything popular or mainstream. Commonly, they have no real care for anyone's particular religious affiliation, as long as it doesn't get shoved onto them.

I'm sure I've missed a lot, but these were my observations from a number of years in the goth scene.

[SavvyWitch]

To keep it short and sweet without the quotes, but giving credit where credit is due, I agree to everything that these folks have stated in their posts. Since I'm last to post within this thread, I'm assuming they have all been read.

There is no common set of beliefs amongst goths, except perhaps to shun anything popular or mainstream. Commonly, they have no real care for anyone's particular religious affiliation, as long as it doesn't get shoved onto them.

You forgot intelligance.. if there is any kind of "beliefs" in goths it's having intelligance.

I have two kid's and I'm sure once they hit their stages... the whole word "goth" will have changed tremendiously.

The black clothes are nothing more than to just say " I'm growing up now... I'm not just a baby anymore..." and this is the way to get the attention of the parents. OP has my complete respect in this matter for at least SEARCHING to understand this, instead of having a closed mind on the whole view of goth. She's unconsiously (unless of course if she is aware of it but most kids who go through the "phase" don't.) telling everyone around her she is changing, and preparing for the adult world, her brain is holding more information and questioning a lot that has to with sociecty, simply.. she's gone past the unicorns and fluffy bunny world. Trust in your daughter more than, just what you read on the subject about other people who are into the "goth" culture, and most of all have faith in her, to put her new brain to good use. ;o) Usually most kids who go through the "wearing all black" stage.. do proclaim goth.. because now that aparently seems to be the stereotype for it. If your daughter was typically a "happy go lucky" child, then I feel safe to say it's definately just a phase.. if she was more in depth to her reality as a child.. then I'd just go with the flow and support her, and giving advice when asked for it, and help her in all ways possible to let her transend into her new phase and let it take her where she has to go in the begining of her adult life. However, I'd still keep a shotgun loaded for boys who are demented and don't understand what NO means. ;o) (Okay all joking aside.) When it comes to my kids, I'm going to promote their phase as much as possible but I'd keep an ear and eye out on the kids they do hang out with. Some kid's have gone through a rough childhood... and never got the support they needed... once they hit this stage.. (sad to say) it can be disaterious . Even though I wouldn't hold my daughter back per se... (and especially wouldn't nag about "don't hang around them!! yadda yadda yadda I forbid it!! = more problems and complete rebellion.) I would definately be throwing out those little comments that would make her young mind question the situation within itself and let her make her own choice.. and hope my influences on her upbringing prevail. ~* Different people are okay, interesting, and kewl, pyschos... are NOT. *~ }X{S}X{

Edited for spelling

Edited January 4, 2007 by SavvyWitch

[+Sherapy]

I am a mother of three i have seen alot of phases and have expressed a few myself as a teenager, i was encouraged and each of my stages were embraced , it taught me it was okay to be who i was, there would be no need to be concerned with suicide unless your child is in a horribly tramatic home and from your posts you sound like a very loving caring mother, when my son went through his graffitit stage and punk stage and rapper stage we did too, in the world of a child with loving parents things come and go, someo of the best kids i know come from parents who honor them get involved, the greatest gift you can give is the gift of self exceptance this will help your child more than anything....and i comend you for wanting to know and embrace her or him is lucky to have you as a parent......

On a lighter note my hubby had a great epiphany when his som decided he was going to wear eye liner and black nail ploish to his Dads work gala, his dad told him you are to be who you need to be i will be proud of you, my hubby is a gruff harley construction worker and so are his work mates yet he walked proud with his son that day, black eye liner and spike bracelets all in black, dyed black hair( dad and son are very close by the way) .....so if my hubby can do you can..a little foot note my son is back to his blond hair no more eye liner and jsut is in a plain stage for now, but is expressing an interest in emo's the new goth.... Rerember its only a stage.....

Edited January 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri