309 replies to this topic

[Paranoid Android]

eight bits, on 01 February 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

PA

So, you seem to have invited me to extend the query in my previous post,


Acts depicts Peter and other apostles persecuted for miracle working, not for the content of their speech. Nobody disputed that they did miracles and invoked Jesus when doing them, so there were no disputed facts for them to recant. Stephen was killed for an overt blapshemy about a question of Jewish religion, not for anything he taught about Jesus' life.

Stephen wasn't a witness anyway, so far as we know, but was at least a close associate in the Jerusalem ministry. Paul is neither a witness nor well placed in the Jerusalem ministry, a point of pride with him. He does endure the hardships and risks of the road, and has poor relations with various local authorities, but the actual subject of their quarrels is at best vague.

There's nobody getting killed in the canon for what they preach about Jesus' life, nor even much record of preaching what the preacher was a witness to.

I'll have to get back to you on this, look into it and see what I find.  I'm not comfortable responding with the level of knowledge I have right now, but I don't have the energy to look it up right now.  Please bear with me

[Crikey]

ranrod, on 01 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

I am a time traveler from the future, I was sent here by you to save you in the future, however, I need a lot of money in order to do so. Your future self told me to come to this time and collect all your possessions from you. Please give me all your financial info...after all, what possible motive could anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" this story?

But right from the very start, Christianity was all about GIVING without charge..
Jesus said to his followers- "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give." (Matt 10:8)
Paul said- "..we do not peddle the word of God for profit"- 2 Cor 2:17

[Paranoid Android]

Tiggs, on 01 February 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Interesting. What evidence do you have for that, exactly?

Specific scrolls or manuscripts from the time, I honestly cannot recall anything.  My comment was based off a Bible study I led last year.  The passage was on James 1, and the first verses begin (after the greetings and salutations) with:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
~ James 1:2-3

Several other parts in James 1 refer to the trials that these Christians face.  When I was originally studying up on the passage, I read a commentary that stated the historical context, that ex-Jews who were Christians now Christians were being targeted by their former Jewish comrades, with tactics such as the ones I described.  I can't recall the sources this commentary provided, I just remember it is one of the commentaries I trusted to be accurate because of the large volume of scholarly research attached to it.

Sorry I can't be of more help,

~ Regards,

[Tiggs]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

1-  As Paranoid Android pointed out in post #61- "in the years immediately after Jesus, there was no colossus of a church, there were no riches and glory.  There was death and persecution"  
So why on earth would people sit down and "invent" Jesus and Christianity if it meant they were likely to be executed?

As opposed to remaining Jewish and definitely being executed by the Romans in 70 AD?

[Frank Merton]

Tiggs, on 01 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

As opposed to remaining Jewish and definitely being executed by the Romans in 70 AD?

Thanks for reminding me of that; the Jews in Judea did get persecuted twice, after revolting.  Interestingly though Jews living elsewhere, as in Rome or Alexandria, were not touched.

[Crikey]

Verloc, on 01 February 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

...If there's one thing I can't stand is Christians trying to convert me...

In the early 1960's some kids at school were going round telling everybody how fab and great a new group called the Beatles were.
We'd never heard of them, so we checked them out and saw it was true, they really were fab and great..
Same with Christianity, Christians want everybody to know how fab and great Jesus is so that they'll connect with him, and his power will flow into them and make them feel good!
"Everybody tried to touch Jesus because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)
Jesus said -"Someone touched me, I know that power has gone out from me." (Luke 8:46)

And we too can "touch" him to connect and get a power download by just mumbling a few words such as "Jesus remember me" when we're tired, lonely, fed up..

[Tiggs]

Paranoid Android, on 01 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Specific scrolls or manuscripts from the time, I honestly cannot recall anything.  

If you find the sources involved, I'd be very interested, as the word Christian is extremely rare for the first century.

[eight bits]

(PA My posting is a little slower than the flow of the action, so this is the reply to your reply-post-before-last on these issues. I see that while I was composing this one, you asked for more time... so by all means take your time. Thank you for your replies so far.)

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The "retail deal" which ended up being fatal was not because the person refused to give money, the reason was because the person lied about not giving what he said he would.

So, in other words, there was a fatal quarrel about the apostolic share of the proceeds of a real estate deal. This is what's in the record, PA; don't shoot the messenger.

Quote

On the flipside, Paul is said to have spurned the money offered to travelling preachers (apparently it was a lucrative business).  Instead he is said to have worked as a tent-maker to pay his way.

OK, Paul has more than one iron in the fire. That doesn't pay the rent on the spacious digs in which we find the Jerusalem Apostles at the opening of Acts. Assuming, of course, that they didn't own the building.

Quote

  In short, I guess I would ask whether the early Christian leaders were really as rich as what you are arguing them to be.

I am not their accountant. I'm not arguing how "rich" they were. I am arguing that their trade is lucrative (as we seem to agree), and that they are depicted as recieving money for their trouble in what few records we have.

In contrast, we have no records of any of them dying violently, except for the two we discussed. One of them we don't know why he was killed, and the other, according to the record, wasn't killed for a statement about Jesus' life.

And by the way,

Quote

Jewish converts who turned to Christ would often find themselves being charged higher prices for goods and services by their Jewish colleagues who remained Jewish.  That's only a small example, but it is still a form of persecution.  If I wanted a loaf of bread and I was being charged $4 instead of $2 simply because I'd converted to a different belief, I'd be pretty PO'ed...

That's called "differential pricing." People who sell stuff charge as much for it as they can get, but not a penny more than that. If you're being charged $4 for a loaf of bread, it's because the seller thinks you've got $4 to spend on his loaf of bread.

That's hardly evidence that you have a reputation for being poor.

It's all well and good to point out, as another poster did, that when Christianity was a wholly Gentile church, it was a "big tent" with lots of poor folks. That, however, is way in the future of the first generation of church leaders. In Acts, the converts include people with the wherewithall to travel long distances to Jerusalem, a Roman officer who has his own estate, a celebrity magician whose gift is refunded, that couple that tried to shortchange the apostles....

These are people with money, PA. That's what in the record.

Edited by eight bits, 01 February 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[Crikey]

Frank Merton, on 01 February 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

The early Christians were not wealthy; mostly they were the poor and the lower ranks in the army, and of course quite a few slaves.  Where did any get any idea otherwise?
Wealth did not come into the church until Constantine.  Of course at that time it became the thing to be if you were up and coming.

Not all early Christians were poor, for example by doing some detective work we find that:-
Marks mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family
John the disciple was also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27)
Paul was an ex-bounty hunter and tentmaker.
Luke was a doctor (2 Tim. 4:11)

So by giving that up and becoming Christians they risked perscution,

Edited by Crikey, 01 February 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[Crikey]

Crikey said- Even the Koran and Buddhism is full of them [contradictions and inconsistencies].

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Koran, yes. Buddhism? Dunno. Buddhism seemed like a pretty congruent system of thought to me. But I take your word for it. So what?

It shows that atheists are over-obsessed with calling the Bible "contradictory", yet rarely say a word against the others..

For the record Koran 2:136  names several prophets including Jesus and says they're all equal in rank- "
we do not make anydistinction between any of them",
Yet Koran 2:253 says some prophets ARE more equal than others-
"We have made some of these apostles to excel the others...
We gave clear miracles to Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit"

As for Buddhism, the inconstencies come thick and fast, for example Buddha even tells us not to listen to him-
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense"
Buddha

[ranrod]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

But right from the very start, Christianity was all about GIVING without charge..
Jesus said to his followers- "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give." (Matt 10:8)
Paul said- "..we do not peddle the word of God for profit"- 2 Cor 2:17

You really don't understand that the bible is your claim, not your proof :/

[Liquid Gardens]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

In the early 1960's some kids at school were going round telling everybody how fab and great a new group called the Beatles were.
We'd never heard of them, so we checked them out and saw it was true, they really were fab and great..

Ha, not only that, but the Beatles were 'more popular than Jesus' according to John (Lennon, not Saint).

Quote

Same with Christianity, Christians want everybody to know how fab and great Jesus is so that they'll connect with him, and his power will flow into them and make them feel good!

We know the Beatles existed and that they made music, we don't know that Jesus is God, nor that there is a God at all; that's a pretty big difference.  And what many Christians want me to know about Jesus I don't think is fab at all, quite the opposite.

[HavocWing]

Frank Merton, on 01 February 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

I suppose if you count all the art and architecture.  Not terribly liquid.

The art, artifacts, the history channel said it was in the hundreds of billions.

[willowdreams]

I am not sure what contractions external or internal an atheist would have.

I do not deny the possibility of a deity, I just personally do not believe in one. Thing is, unexplained things do not cause me to feel any contradiction.

Why would they?

Science grows and changes and grows and changes.  it *gasps*.. evolves.

What people considered a mystery, and thus must be of god, 500 yrs ago, we now have scientific explinations of.

That is how it is today. There are mysteries we seemingly cannot demystify. Does not make it godly, just means we do not have the answers yet. We may have them in 3 yrs, 10 yrs, 100 yrs. 1001 yrs from now. Just not today.

[Beckys_Mom]

Crikey, on 01 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I know, they each read into various Bible passages only what they want to see; it's a vanity thing so they can claim "Only WE know the true meaning, and the rest of you poor dumb shmucks don't"
In other words they twist Bible verses out of shape and are therefore "spiritual perverts"

Cheery picking is at the head of the table there..Which is why I cannot hold doubt in so many editing it to suit themselves

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 01 February 2013 - 05:27 PM.