11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

HJA HÀVATH PRESTERA LIK THAM.
ÀND NW HJA KÀRKA HÀVE. ÁK BYLDON.

ZIJ HEBBEN PRIESTERS GELIJK HEN
ENDE NU ZIJ KERKEN HEBBEN. OOK BEELDEN

They have priests like them,
and now they have churches, also statues.

[Abramelin]

I know my "Dutch" translations look like crap, but I use Medieval Dutch and even Old Flemish ("dewijl").

Check the "etymologybank" site.

I only wanted to show that I can translate this OLB 'ancient Frisian', or whatever I should call it, by using Dutch and Flemish.

Alas, I wanted to post a lot more, but 'duty calls' ( = nagging ex).

[Knul]

Otharus, on 22 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Criticism of religions in OLB

Worship of "BYLDON" (statues or images) - fragment 3 of 14

- - - - -

OLB p.[055/16]-[056/17]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the deification of Wodin (ca. 2000 BC)

AS WODIN NW TOBÀK KÉM
JAV THENE MÁGí HIM SIN TOGHATER TO.N WIF.

ÀFTENÉI WÀRTH.I MITH KRÚDON BIRÉKAD.
MEN THÉR WÉRON TAWER.KRÚDON MONG.
HWAND WODIN WARTH BI GRÁDUM ALSA SÉR VRMÉTEN.
THAT.I FRYA ÀND WR.ALDAS GÁST MIS.KÀNA ÀND SPOTA THVRADE.
THAWÍLA HI SIN FRYA HALS BOG TOFARA FALSKA DROCHTEN.LIKANDE BYLDUM.

SIN RIK HILDE SJVGUN JÉR
THÁ VRDWIND.ER.
THENE MÁGI SÉIDE THAT.ER EMONG HJARA GODON VPNIMETH WÉRE.
ÀND THAT HI FON THÉR OVER HJAM WELDA.
MEN VS FOLK LAKTON VMBE SIN TÁL.

THÁ WODIN EN STÚT WÉI WÉST HÉDE
KÉM THÉR TWISPALT.
WI WILDON EN ÔRA KÀNING KJASA.
MEN THAT NILDE THENE MÁGÍ NAVT NE HENGJA.

HI WÉRDE THAT ET EN RJUCHT WÉRE.
HIM THRVCH SINA DROCHTNE JÉVEN.
BUTA ÀND BIHALVA THISSA TWIST.
SA WAS THÉR JET.ÉN EMONG SIN MÁGJARA ÀND FINNA.
THÉR FRYA NER WODIN ÉRA NAVT NILDE.

MEN THI MÁGÍ DÉDE AS.T IM SINDE
HWAND SIN TOGHATER HÉDE EN SVN BI WODIN WVNEN.
ÀND NW WILDE THENE MÁGÍ THAT THISSE FON EN HÁGE KOM.OF WÉSA SKOLDE.

THAHWÍLA ALLE SÁNADE ÀND TWISTA.
KRÔNADE HI THENE KNÁP TO KÀNING
ÀND STÀLADE HIN SELS AS FOGED ÀND FORA.MOND JEFTA RÉD.JÉVAR AN.

THÉRA THÉR MÁR HILDON FON HJARA BALG AS FON THÀT RJUCHT.
THAM LÉTON HINI BIDOBBA.
MEN THA GODA BRÚDON WÉI.

- - - - -

Ottema p.79

Toen Wodin nu terug kwam,
gaf de Magy hem zijne dochter tot vrouw.

Daarop werd hij met kruiden berookt,
doch er waren tooverkruiden onder;
want Wodin werd trapsgewijze zoo zeer vermetel,
dat hij Frya en Wraldas geest durfde miskennen en bespotten,
terwijl hij zijn vrije hals boog voor de valsche gedrochtelijke [op afgoden lijkende] beelden.

Zijn rijk duurde zeven jaren,
toen verdween hij.
De Magy zeide dat hij onder hunne goden was opgenomen,
en dat hij van daar over hen heerschte,
maar ons volk lachte om zijne taal.

Toen Wodin eene poos weg geweest was,
kwam er tweespalt;
wij wilden een anderen koning kiezen,
maar dat wilde de Magy niet gedoogen.

Hij beweerde dat het een recht was,
hem door zijne afgoden gegeven.
Maar buiten en behalve deze twist,
was nog eene tusschen de Magiaren en Finnen,
die Frya noch Wodin wilden eeren,

doch de Magy deed zoo als hem goed dacht,
want zijne dochter had bij Wodin een zoon gewonnen,
en nu wilde de Magy dat deze zoon van hooge afkomst wezen zoude.

Terwijl allen keven en twisten,
kroonde hij den knaap tot koning
en stelde zich zelven tot voogd of raadgever aan.

Zij die meer hielden van hun lijf [pens], dan van het recht,
lieten hem tobben [zich bedelven],
maar de goeden trokken weg.

- - - - -

Sandbach p.79

When Wodin returned,
Magy gave him his daughter to wife.

Whereupon he was incensed with herbs;
but they were magic herbs,
and by degrees he became so audacious
that he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda,
while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful [idol-like] images.

His reign lasted seven years,
and then he disappeared.
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods
and still reigned over us,
but our people laughed at what they said.

When Wodin had disappeared some time,
disputes arose.
We wished to choose another king,
but the Magy would not permit it.

He asserted that it was his right
given him by his idols.
But besides this dispute
there was one between the Magyars and Finns,
who would honour neither Frya nor Wodin;

but the Magy did just as he pleased,
because his daughter had a son by Wodin,
and he would have it that this son was of high descent.

While all were disputing and quarrelling,
he crowned the boy as king,
and set up himself as guardian and counsellor.

Those who cared more for themselves [their stomach] than for justice
let him work his own way [themselves be overwhelmed],
but the good men took their departure.

FOGED ÀND FORA.MOND = voogd en voormond (juridical term).

[Knul]

Otharus, on 22 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Criticism of religions in OLB

Worship of "BYLDON" (statues or images) - fragment 3 of 14

- - - - -

OLB p.[055/16]-[056/17]: from the Waraburch at Aldegamude, about the deification of Wodin (ca. 2000 BC)

AS WODIN NW TOBÀK KÉM
JAV THENE MÁGí HIM SIN TOGHATER TO.N WIF.

ÀFTENÉI WÀRTH.I MITH KRÚDON BIRÉKAD.
MEN THÉR WÉRON TAWER.KRÚDON MONG.
HWAND WODIN WARTH BI GRÁDUM ALSA SÉR VRMÉTEN.
THAT.I FRYA ÀND WR.ALDAS GÁST MIS.KÀNA ÀND SPOTA THVRADE.
THAWÍLA HI SIN FRYA HALS BOG TOFARA FALSKA DROCHTEN.LIKANDE BYLDUM.

SIN RIK HILDE SJVGUN JÉR
THÁ VRDWIND.ER.
THENE MÁGI SÉIDE THAT.ER EMONG HJARA GODON VPNIMETH WÉRE.
ÀND THAT HI FON THÉR OVER HJAM WELDA.
MEN VS FOLK LAKTON VMBE SIN TÁL.

THÁ WODIN EN STÚT WÉI WÉST HÉDE
KÉM THÉR TWISPALT.
WI WILDON EN ÔRA KÀNING KJASA.
MEN THAT NILDE THENE MÁGÍ NAVT NE HENGJA.

HI WÉRDE THAT ET EN RJUCHT WÉRE.
HIM THRVCH SINA DROCHTNE JÉVEN.
BUTA ÀND BIHALVA THISSA TWIST.
SA WAS THÉR JET.ÉN EMONG SIN MÁGJARA ÀND FINNA.
THÉR FRYA NER WODIN ÉRA NAVT NILDE.

MEN THI MÁGÍ DÉDE AS.T IM SINDE
HWAND SIN TOGHATER HÉDE EN SVN BI WODIN WVNEN.
ÀND NW WILDE THENE MÁGÍ THAT THISSE FON EN HÁGE KOM.OF WÉSA SKOLDE.

THAHWÍLA ALLE SÁNADE ÀND TWISTA.
KRÔNADE HI THENE KNÁP TO KÀNING
ÀND STÀLADE HIN SELS AS FOGED ÀND FORA.MOND JEFTA RÉD.JÉVAR AN.

THÉRA THÉR MÁR HILDON FON HJARA BALG AS FON THÀT RJUCHT.
THAM LÉTON HINI BIDOBBA.
MEN THA GODA BRÚDON WÉI.

- - - - -

Ottema p.79

Toen Wodin nu terug kwam,
gaf de Magy hem zijne dochter tot vrouw.

Daarop werd hij met kruiden berookt,
doch er waren tooverkruiden onder;
want Wodin werd trapsgewijze zoo zeer vermetel,
dat hij Frya en Wraldas geest durfde miskennen en bespotten,
terwijl hij zijn vrije hals boog voor de valsche gedrochtelijke [op afgoden lijkende] beelden.

Zijn rijk duurde zeven jaren,
toen verdween hij.
De Magy zeide dat hij onder hunne goden was opgenomen,
en dat hij van daar over hen heerschte,
maar ons volk lachte om zijne taal.

Toen Wodin eene poos weg geweest was,
kwam er tweespalt;
wij wilden een anderen koning kiezen,
maar dat wilde de Magy niet gedoogen.

Hij beweerde dat het een recht was,
hem door zijne afgoden gegeven.
Maar buiten en behalve deze twist,
was nog eene tusschen de Magiaren en Finnen,
die Frya noch Wodin wilden eeren,

doch de Magy deed zoo als hem goed dacht,
want zijne dochter had bij Wodin een zoon gewonnen,
en nu wilde de Magy dat deze zoon van hooge afkomst wezen zoude.

Terwijl allen keven en twisten,
kroonde hij den knaap tot koning
en stelde zich zelven tot voogd of raadgever aan.

Zij die meer hielden van hun lijf [pens], dan van het recht,
lieten hem tobben [zich bedelven],
maar de goeden trokken weg.

- - - - -

Sandbach p.79

When Wodin returned,
Magy gave him his daughter to wife.

Whereupon he was incensed with herbs;
but they were magic herbs,
and by degrees he became so audacious
that he dared to disavow and ridicule the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda,
while he bent his free head before the false and deceitful [idol-like] images.

His reign lasted seven years,
and then he disappeared.
The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods
and still reigned over us,
but our people laughed at what they said.

When Wodin had disappeared some time,
disputes arose.
We wished to choose another king,
but the Magy would not permit it.

He asserted that it was his right
given him by his idols.
But besides this dispute
there was one between the Magyars and Finns,
who would honour neither Frya nor Wodin;

but the Magy did just as he pleased,
because his daughter had a son by Wodin,
and he would have it that this son was of high descent.

While all were disputing and quarrelling,
he crowned the boy as king,
and set up himself as guardian and counsellor.

Those who cared more for themselves [their stomach] than for justice
let him work his own way [themselves be overwhelmed],
but the good men took their departure.

suggestions:

BALG = gebalg cfr. blaasbalg express. een grote keel opzetten, snoeven.
BRUDON = gaven er de brui aan.
BIDOBBA =betijen ipv bedelven
BI GRADUM = stap voor stap
KOM OF - komaf (letterlijk)
LAKTON moet zijn LAKTE (enkelvoud).
AFTENEI moet zijn AFTERNEI
THAWILA moet zijn THAHWILA
FOGED AEND FORA-MUND - voogd en voormond
BIREKATH - bedwelmd (rook - walm)
HIN SELS moet zijn: HIM SELS

Edited by Knul, 22 February 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Abramelin]

Discussion is about this: you say this, and someone reponds.

But you just pour out what is bothering you, and then you simply hope people here will understand what you posted about.... in DUTCH.

Menno, Dutch is NOT a 'lingua franca', ok?

Man, jesus...

If you think you need help, ASK.

I am quite sure even an Otharus will help you if you ask him for a translation, and I won't mind either.

But no one here loves that job, so no one will 'volunteer'.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 February 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 22 February 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Discussion is about this: you say this, and someone reponds.

But you just pour out what is bothering you, and then you simply hope people here will understand what you posted about.... in DUTCH.

Menno, Dutch is NOT a 'lingua franca', ok?

Man, jesus...

If you think you need help, ASK.

I am quite sure even an Otharus will help you if you ask him for a translation, and I won't mind either.

But no one here loves that job, so no one will 'volunteer'.




.

But Dietsch is.

We are talking about an old Duytch language, can we speak it please.
Englisch can also be seen as West-Flemish Creolor :-) No offence.  

A mong tis luttel is-simple (s-ample).  A sampeltje zoals wij zeggen.

Abe, Delahaye looks for the truth and Ijpelaan aknowledges that.

Alvorens iemand nog stellig wil verklaren dat Amorem níet hetzelfde is als van Armorica en ook de band met de Chamaven wil handhaven is het nuttig dat hij eerst het geheel van de bronnen over de Chamavi raadpleegt (12), net als die over Armorica, al te meer omdat er voor Amore geen enkele alternatieve localisatie voorhanden is. De Chamavi waren Franken (13) en in de documentatie van Armorica komen veel spellingsvarianten van de naam voor (14).

In De Franken in Nederland zijn de andere traditionalistische localisaties van de ‘liefdesrivier’ Amore (Eems, Eem en Amer bij Amersfoort) achterwege gebleven, waarmee wordt toegegeven dat deze plaats in Nederland nergens met enige zekerheid kan worden aangewezen en er wordt zonder enige opgaaf van redenen volgehouden dat het om een rivier gaat.

And about 'wanting something', I think some others have good experience in that.
Why do you want (same way you say about Delahaye) to deny closer and more obvious links than always that Hebrew story?

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 22 February 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

But Dietsch is.

We are talking about an old Duytch language, can we speak it please.
Englisch can also be seen as West-Flemish Creolor :-) No offence.  

A mong tis luttel is-simple (s-ample).  A sampeltje zoals wij zeggen.

Abe, Delahaye looks for the truth and Ijpelaan aknowledges that.

Alvorens iemand nog stellig wil verklaren dat Amorem níet hetzelfde is als van Armorica en ook de band met de Chamaven wil handhaven is het nuttig dat hij eerst het geheel van de bronnen over de Chamavi raadpleegt (12), net als die over Armorica, al te meer omdat er voor Amore geen enkele alternatieve localisatie voorhanden is. De Chamavi waren Franken (13) en in de documentatie van Armorica komen veel spellingsvarianten van de naam voor (14).

In De Franken in Nederland zijn de andere traditionalistische localisaties van de ‘liefdesrivier’ Amore (Eems, Eem en Amer bij Amersfoort) achterwege gebleven, waarmee wordt toegegeven dat deze plaats in Nederland nergens met enige zekerheid kan worden aangewezen en er wordt zonder enige opgaaf van redenen volgehouden dat het om een rivier gaat.

And about 'wanting something', I think some others have good experience in that.
Why do you want (same way you say about Delahaye) to deny closer and more obvious links than always that Hebrew story?

Yeah, post more Dutch text, people here will love it. Your brains dropped out or what?

I am glad I am a mix of Jewish, Russian, German, Basque, and Dutch blood. And I found out... a lot of Frisian blood also.

And, btw, Delahaye has been proven wrong.

He was not some nut, but science proved him wrong. To me he was like a Thor Heyerdahl: interesting theory, but wrong.

Alas.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 22 February 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Discussion is about this: you say this, and someone reponds.

But you just pour out what is bothering you, and then you simply hope people here will understand what you posted about.... in DUTCH.

Menno, Dutch is NOT a 'lingua franca', ok?

Man, jesus...

If you think you need help, ASK.

I am quite sure even an Otharus will help you if you ask him for a translation, and I won't mind either.

But no one here loves that job, so no one will 'volunteer'.




.

Unfortunately the OLB is a Dutch / Frisian source. People, who can only read Sandbach's translation of the OLB miss a lot of information anyway.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 22 February 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Sandbach p.55

Comparing the translation of Sandbach (1876) to that of Raubenheimer (2011; 2nd edition, based on Sandbach), it can be concluded that Raubenheimer's version indeed seems to be an improvement.

However, in the following example, an important detail was missed, namely, that the Greek priests did not only erect statues of Minerva on their altars, but also that they sold statues of Minerva to the people; they commercialised her popularity!

Original fragment:

HJRA BYLDNESE STÀLDON HJA VPPA HJARA ÀLTÀRUM
JEFTHA HJA VRSELLADE.T ANDA DVMA MÀNNISKA.

Here's in italic Sandbach's and in normal script Raubenheimer's version:

one would have thought that they would have called all the people together
to drive us out of the land;
but no, in place of abusing her they went all about
from the heathenish [near] Krekaland to the Alps, proclaiming

Now everyone would think that they would have called everywhere on the people
to drive us all out of the land.
(But) no, instead of defaming her, they went everywhere,
also to Heinde Krekaland (Italy) right up to the Alps, proclaiming

that it had pleased the Almighty God
to send his clever [wise] daughter Min-erva, surnamed Nyhellenia,
over the sea in a cloud to give people good counsel,
and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy,
and in the end governors of all the kingdoms of the earth.

that it had pleased the highest god
to send his wise daughter Minerva, surnamed Nyhellenia,
amongst the people from over the sea on a cloud to give people good counsel,
and that all who listened to her should become rich and happy,
and in the end masters of all the kingdoms of the earth.

They erected statues to her on all their altars,
they announced and [or] sold [them] to the simple [dumb] people
[they announced] advice that she had never given,
and related miracles
that she had never performed.

They erected statues of her on their altars
to beguile the stupid people.
They attributed all kinds of advice to her that she had never given,
and told of miracles
that she had never performed.

They cunningly made themselves masters of our laws and customs,
and by craft and subtlety were able to explain and spread them around.

By cunning they made themselves masters of our laws and customs
and by fallacies they wished to explain everything and expand thereon.

They appointed priestesses under their own care,
who were apparently under the protection of Festa, our first Eeremoeder [Mother of Honour],
to watch over the holy lamp;

They appointed matrons under their own authority,
who were ostensibly under the authority of Fasta, our first Honorary Mother,
to watch over the sacred lamp.

but that lamp they lit themselves,
and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom,
and then sending them
to watch the sick
and educate the young,
they made them stupid and ignorant,
and never allowed them to come out.

That lamp, however, they lit themselves
and instead of imbuing the priestesses with wisdom,
and then sending them
amongst the people to nurse the sick
and educate the young,
they made them stupid and ignorant,
and never allowed them to come out.

They were employed as advisers,
but the advice which seemed to come from them
was but the repetition of the behests of the priests.

They were also employed as advisers,
but they only pretended that the advice came from their mouths;
they were nothing more than the mouth pieces through which the priests announced their desires.

[Otharus]

Criticism of religions in OLB

Worship of "BYLDON" (statues or images) - fragment 4 of 14

In the following fragment, statues/ images are not explicitly mentioned, but there are to references to idol-worship of the Sídon priests; festivals with wine & wanton women (orgies?), and child-sacrifice.

The term used for idols here is DROCHTEN (miss-spelled as DROCTEN)/ DROCHTNE.

Two other fragments are underlined: about trade of jewelry and the kidnapping of girls.

- - - - -

OLB p.[060/23]-[061/27]: copied 600 BC from Waraburg or Stavia, about Gola and child-sacrifice (after Tunis' travels)

THA GOLA. ALSA HÉTON. THA SÀNDALINGA.PRESTERA SÍDON.IS.
THA GOLA HÉDON WEL SJAN THET ET LAND THÉR SKÀRES BIFOLKAD WAS
ÀND FÉR FON THÉR MODER WÉRE.

VMB IRA SELVA NW EN GODE SKIN TO JÉVANE.
LÉTON HJA RA SELVA IN VSA TÁL AN.A.TROW E.WÍDENA HÉTA.
MEN THAT WÉRE BÉTRE WÉST.
AS HJA RA SELVA FON THÉRE TROW E.WENDENA NÔMATH HÉDE.
JEFTA KIRT WÉI TRJV.WENDNE
LIK VSA STJURAR LÉTER DÉN HÀVE.

THÁ HJA WEL SÉTON WÉRON
THA WANDELDON HJARA KÁPLJUDA SKÉNE KÁPRE WÉPNE
ÀND ALLERLÉJA SÍRHÉDON TOFARA VSA ÍSERE WÉPNE ÀND WILDE DIARA HUDA.
WÉRFON IN VSA SÛDER LANDA FÉLO TO BIKVMA WÉRON.

MEN THA GOLA FÍRADON ALLERHÁNA WLA DROCTEN LIKA FÉRSTA
ÁND TO TÍANDE THA KÁDHÉMAR THÉRA THRVCH TODVAN HJARAR HORIGA MANGHÉRTNE
ÀND THA SWÉT.HÉD FON HJARA FININNIGE WIN.

WAS THÉR HWA FON VS FOLK THÉR.ET ALSA ÀRG VRBRUD HÉDE
THAT SIN LIF IN FRÉSE KÉM
THAN LÉNADON THA GOLA HIM HUL ÀND SKUL
ÀND FORADON HIM NÉI PHONISJA. THAT IS PALM.LAND.

WAS HI THÉR SÉTEN
THÀN MOST.I AN SINA SIBBA ÀND FRIANDA ÀND ÁTHA SKRIWA
THAT.ET LAND SÁ GOD WÉRE ÀND THA MÀNNISKA SÁ LUKLIK
AS NINMÀN HIN SELVA MOCHT FORBYLDE.

A BRITTANJA WÉRON RJU FÉLO MANNA THA LITH WIVA.
THÁ THA GOLA THAT WISTON.
LÉTON HJA ALWÉIS MANGHÉRTNE SKÁKA
ÀND THESSA JAVON HJA THA BRITNE VMB NAWET.

THACH AL THISSA MANGHÉRTNE WÉRON HJARA THJANSTERUM
THÉR THA BERN FON WR.ÁLDA STOLON
VMBAR AN HJARA FALSKE DROCHTNE TO JÉVANE.

- - - - -

Ottema p.85

De Golen, zoo heetten de zendeling-priesters van Sydon,
hadden wel gezien dat het land daar schaars bevolkt was
en ver van de Moeder was.

Om nu zich zelven een goeden schijn te geven,
lieten zij zich zelve in onze taal aan de trouw gewijden heeten,
maar dat was beter geweest,
als zij zich zelve van de trouw gewenden genoemd hadden
of kort weg Triuwenden,
gelijk onze zeelieden later gedaan hebben.

Toen zij wel gezeten waren,
ruilden hunne kooplieden schoone koperen wapenen
en allerlei sieraden tegen onze ijzeren wapenen en huiden van wilde dieren,
die in onze zuidelijke landen in menigte te bekomen waren,

maar de Golen vierden allerhande vuile gedrochtelijke feesten,
en dan dienden de Kadheimers die door toedoen van hunne wulpsche [hoerige] meisjes
en de zoetheid van hunne vergiftige wijn.

Was er iemand van ons volk die het zoo erg verbruid had,
dat zijn leven in gevaar kwam,
dan verleenden de Golen hem heul en schuilplaats,
en voerden hem naar Phonisia, dat is Palmland.

Was hij daar gezeten,
dan moest hij aan zijne bloedverwanten, vrienden en aanverwanten schrijven,
dat het land zoo goed was en de menschen zoo gelukkig,
als niemand zich konde verbeelden.

In Brittania waren zeer vele mannen, doch weinig vrouwen,
toen de Golen dat wisten,
lieten zij allerwege meisjes schaken,
en deze gaven zij aan de Britten om niet.

Doch al deze meisjes waren hunne dienaren
die kinderen van Wralda stalen
om ze aan hunne valsche afgoden te geven.

- - - - -

Sandbach p.85

The Golen, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called,
had observed that the land there was thinly peopled,
and was far from the mother.

In order to make a favourable impression,
they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth [or: dedicated to loyalty];
but they had better
have been called abstainers from the truth [or: avoiding loyalty],
or, in short, "Triuwenden,"
as our seafaring people afterwards called them.

When they were well established,
their merchants exchanged their beautiful copper weapons
and all sorts of jewels for our iron weapons and hides of wild beasts,
which were abundant in our southern countries;

but the Golen celebrated all sorts of vile and monstrous ['idol-like'] festivals,
which the inhabitants of the coast promoted with their wanton women
and sweet poisonous wine.

If any of our people had so conducted himself
that his life was in danger,
the Golen afforded him a refuge,
and sent him to Phonisia, that is, Palmland.

When he was settled there,
they made him write to his family, friends, and connections
that the country was so good and the people so happy
that no one could form any idea of [imagine] it.

In Britain there were plenty of men, but few women.
When the Golen knew this,
they carried off girls everywhere
and gave them to the Britons for nothing.

So all these girls served their purpose
to steal children from Wr-alda
in order to give them to [their] false gods [idols].

Edited by Otharus, 23 February 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 22 February 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

But Dietsch is.

We are talking about an old Duytch language, can we speak it please.
Englisch can also be seen as West-Flemish Creolor :-) No offence.  

A mong tis luttel is-simple (s-ample).  A sampeltje zoals wij zeggen.

Abe, Delahaye looks for the truth and Ijpelaan aknowledges that.

Alvorens iemand nog stellig wil verklaren dat Amorem níet hetzelfde is als van Armorica en ook de band met de Chamaven wil handhaven is het nuttig dat hij eerst het geheel van de bronnen over de Chamavi raadpleegt (12), net als die over Armorica, al te meer omdat er voor Amore geen enkele alternatieve localisatie voorhanden is. De Chamavi waren Franken (13) en in de documentatie van Armorica komen veel spellingsvarianten van de naam voor (14).

In De Franken in Nederland zijn de andere traditionalistische localisaties van de ‘liefdesrivier’ Amore (Eems, Eem en Amer bij Amersfoort) achterwege gebleven, waarmee wordt toegegeven dat deze plaats in Nederland nergens met enige zekerheid kan worden aangewezen en er wordt zonder enige opgaaf van redenen volgehouden dat het om een rivier gaat.

And about 'wanting something', I think some others have good experience in that.
Why do you want (same way you say about Delahaye) to deny closer and more obvious links than always that Hebrew story?

Van Gorp, this is an international forum with English as language to converse.

Maybe Diets was some sort of lingua franca more than 1000 years ago, but it isn't now.

You could as well start using latin.

And "Armorem" was based on VandeMaele's mistake: the Lex Frisionum never mentions it.

And what's wrong with "that Hebrew story"? If you didn't forget everything you learned in highschool, then you should know the Jews travelled along with Phoenician and Greek merchants and settled everywhere around the Med. The name they used for themselves or people like them was "GOLA".

Then, the Phoenicians and Jews were as close as 2 fingers of one hand, plus that already in ancient times many Jews lived in Sidon, Phoenicia.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 February 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Otharus]

Criticism of religions in OLB

Worship of "BYLDON" (statues or images) - fragment 5 of 14

- - - - -

OLB p.[072/22]-[073/02]: from Fryasburg, Texland, about the Gértmanna leaving Athens, ca. 1550 BC (after Minerva had died)

AS THA PRESTERA SAGON
THAT THJA HJARA HERING NAVT VP VSA FJVR BRÉDA NE MACHTON.
THÁ GVNGON HJA BUTA ÁTHENJA
ÀND SÉIDON THAT WI MINERVA NAVT TO.NE GODENE BIKÀNA NILDE UT NÍD
VMBE THAT HJU THA INHÉMAR SÁ FÚL LIAFDE BIWÉSEN HÉDE

FORTH JAVON HJA THAT FOLK BYLDNISSE FON HIRA LIKNESS
TJÚGANDE THAT HJA THÉRAN ELLA FRÉJA MACHTE
ALSANAKA HJA HÉROCH BILÉWON.

THRVCH AL THISSA TELLINGA
WARTH THÀT DVMA FOLK FON VS OFKÉRAD.
ÀND TO THA LESTA FÍLON HJA VS TO LIF.

- - - - -

Ottema p.101

Als de priesters zagen,
dat zij hunne haring op ons vuur niet mochten braden,
gingen zij buiten Athene
en zeiden, dat wij Minerva niet als eene Godin wilden bekennen uit nijd,
omdat zij de inlanders zooveel liefde had bewezen.

Daarop gaven zij het volk beeldtenissen van hare gelijkenis,
betuigende dat zij daaraan alles mochten vragen,
zoo lang zij gehoorzaam bleven.

Door al deze verhalen
werd het domme volk van ons afkeerig gemaakt,
en ten laatsten vielen zij ons te lijf.

- - - - -

Sandbach p.101

When the priests saw
that they could not fry their herrings on our fire (have everything their own way),
they left Athens,
and said that we refused to acknowledge Min-erva as a goddess out of envy,
because she had shown so much affection to the natives.

Thereupon they gave the people statues of her,
declaring that they might ask of them whatever they liked,
as long as they were obedient to her.

By these kinds of tales
the stupid [dumb] people were estranged from us,
and at last they attacked us;

[Abramelin]

Lol, Van Gorp, a bit more about "that Hebrew story"':

Ibrahim ibn Yaqub al-Tartushi, a late 10th-century traveller from al-Andalus, provides one of the most colourful and often quoted descriptions of life in Hedeby. Al-Tartushi was from Cordoba in Spain, which had a significantly more wealthy and comfortable lifestyle than Hedeby. While Hedeby may have been significant by Scandinavian standards, Al-Tartushi was unimpressed:

"Slesvig (Hedeby) is a very large town at the extreme end of the world ocean.... The inhabitants worship Sirius, except for a minority of Christians who have a church of their own there.... He who slaughters a sacrificial animal puts up poles at the door to his courtyard and impales the animal on them, be it a piece of cattle, a ram, billygoat or a pig so that his neighbors will be aware that he is making a sacrifice in honor of his god. The town is poor in goods and riches. People eat mainly fish which exist in abundance. Babies are thrown into the sea for reasons of economy. The right to divorce belongs to the women.... Artificial eye make-up is another peculiarity; when they wear it their beauty never disappears, indeed it is enhanced in both men and women. Further: Never did I hear singing fouler than that of these people, it is a rumbling emanating from their throats, similar to that of a dog but even more bestial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedeby

Abraham ben Jacob, better known under his Arabic name of Ibrâhîm ibn Ya`qûb (al-Tartushi [often like this instead of 'al-Ṭurṭûshî']) was a 10th century Hispano-Arabic, plausibly Sephardi Jewish, traveller, probably a merchant, whose brief may have included diplomacy and espionage.

http://en.wikipedia....qub_al-Tartushi

So we have another 'watch-star' : Sirius.

And another possible source for introducing those Hindu-Arabic ciphers into nordic lands.

[Abramelin]

By these kinds of tales
the stupid [dumb] people were estranged from us,
and at last they attacked us;

Otharus, you may not like the word "stupid" in that sentence, but although "dumb" is closests (in English) to the original word, it is most often used in connection with silence, or not being able to speak or being without words.

It's obvious from the context that "stupid" is meant.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Otharus, you may not like the word "stupid" in that sentence, but although "dumb" is closests (in English) to the original word, it is most often used in connection with silence, or not being able to speak or being without words.

It's obvious from the context that "stupid" is meant.

Aha, you're right. Thanks for that. No problems with the word stupid, just assumed that the English "dumb" would be equal to the Dutch "dom" and the German "dumm".

I was thinking about the movie "dumb & dumber", about two nitwits (but I never saw it).

Edited by Otharus, 23 February 2012 - 09:56 AM.