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Alien photos that make you go HHHMMM .......

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#91    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:32 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Not trying to jump in the middle of something here but It is more about what works, period. The humanoid model works well...for us. I don't think it is as definitive as you would suggest though. Don't get me wrong, there are undeniable advantages to a humanoid form though I think there is room in the great scope of life to incorporate higher intelligence and subsequent space travel in other body types as well. I don't have anything to back that up with though, it's just an opinion of mine. :tu:

No probs my friend, good to have you on board!

I cannot understand why though. As you say, you have a personal opinion, but logically, can the anthropomorphic argument be soundly refuted, nay challenged? With over 50 billion different shapes in our historical record, and only one shape achieving intelligence, and several times at that, I find a convincing argument. I tried for weeks to come up with an alternative plan with my very basic skills on Daz3D, but to no avail. Everything I designed that could lift, manipulate and design came up anthropomorphic. More is superfluous I find.

That's where I get on board with it. ;)

And, I have never seen another design that is as efficient, in nature, or imagination. Which I admit I lack severely.

Edited by psyche101, 15 November 2012 - 06:33 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#92    Slave2Fate

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:45 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

No probs my friend, good to have you on board!

I cannot understand why though. As you say, you have a personal opinion, but logically, can the anthropomorphic argument be soundly refuted, nay challenged? With over 50 billion different shapes in our historical record, and only one shape achieving intelligence, and several times at that, I find a convincing argument. I tried for weeks to come up with an alternative plan with my very basic skills on Daz3D, but to no avail. Everything I designed that could lift, manipulate and design came up anthropomorphic. More is superfluous I find.

That's where I get on board with it. ;)

Well there is certainly the mechanical aspect to consider regarding tool creation and manipulation. You're not going to see a snail, no matter how smart, build a spacecraft. ^_^

I'm not so much challenging the anthropomorphic model as much as suggesting that there could conceivably be alternative 'frames' that could acquire the prerequisites for space travel. Look at spiders for example, 8 legs around a central body. They are strong, fast, expert climbers and can manipulate silk (which they create themselves) better than a master weaver. Given the right nudge I think a spider, or any of several insect 'types' could conceivably begin the journey from intelligence through to space flight. Note that I'm not saying insects per se. However the 'frame' of which, if given the right conditions could possibly prosper. Maybe even better than we have. :tu:

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#93    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:16 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Well there is certainly the mechanical aspect to consider regarding tool creation and manipulation. You're not going to see a snail, no matter how smart, build a spacecraft. ^_^

I'm not so much challenging the anthropomorphic model as much as suggesting that there could conceivably be alternative 'frames' that could acquire the prerequisites for space travel. Look at spiders for example, 8 legs around a central body. They are strong, fast, expert climbers and can manipulate silk (which they create themselves) better than a master weaver. Given the right nudge I think a spider, or any of several insect 'types' could conceivably begin the journey from intelligence through to space flight. Note that I'm not saying insects per se. However the 'frame' of which, if given the right conditions could possibly prosper. Maybe even better than we have. :tu:

Hey Mate


I am struggling a bit with the concept of "the frame".
I have other questions, but I think I need to understand the frame before I ask them. Not sure how the frame changes what out model has taught us?

I am also not sure how insects would achieve intelligence. With no concept of empathy or theory of mind, but purely instinctual survival, I am not sure how communications could evolve in rudimentary brain pattern? That is one of the things that forced us into an Industrial Revolution, manipulating one's environment, With adaptions to deal with the local environment in place by nature, what would prompt a brain to evolve into something that can comprehend speech and symbols? Looking at our insects, there has been no need to change insect body shapes over the course of millions of years, what would cause this to change and under what conditions?

I also place much importance on the mechanical aspect. I think it is a natural step in the evolutionary process.

Cheers.

Edited by psyche101, 15 November 2012 - 07:17 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#94    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:19 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

The humanoid model works well...for us. :tu:

One point I had not mentioned is that we are also looking for "Life as we know it" on "earth like worlds".

Would that not also suggest earth like evolution?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#95    Slave2Fate

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:45 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Hey Mate


I am struggling a bit with the concept of "the frame".
I have other questions, but I think I need to understand the frame before I ask them. Not sure how the frame changes what out model has taught us?

I am also not sure how insects would achieve intelligence. With no concept of empathy or theory of mind, but purely instinctual survival, I am not sure how communications could evolve in rudimentary brain pattern? That is one of the things that forced us into an Industrial Revolution, manipulating one's environment, With adaptions to deal with the local environment in place by nature, what would prompt a brain to evolve into something that can comprehend speech and symbols? Looking at our insects, there has been no need to change insect body shapes over the course of millions of years, what would cause this to change and under what conditions?

I also place much importance on the mechanical aspect. I think it is a natural step in the evolutionary process.

Cheers.

By frame I merely meant the body configuration, as in 8 legs around a central body. Or even a variation thereof. As I said, I didn't mean insects specifically however the body configuration of a spider (in something akin to mammals for example) could lend itself well to environmental manipulation. Heck, a spider is practically a 'hand' all by itself. How is that not efficient? Who needs more hands when your entire body can manipulate objects as well (or better) as an 8 fingered hand attached to the rest of a body could?

I don't know, I'm just fleshing out the idea so far as I haven't given it a great deal of thought yet. I'm just kind of running with the spider thing at the moment, however I still think it is a possibility. You say you haven't seen anything that could discredit the anthropomorphic model yet I haven't seen anything to suggest it is paramount either. That's all I'm really getting at. It very well could be the base model for intelligent space faring beings, though to be honest I don't relish the idea much. Life is too wildly varied. So much so that I would be a bit disappointed if it were that way. Perhaps I have taken in too much sci-fi over the years. ^_^ :tu:

Edit: clarification.

Edited by Slave2Fate, 15 November 2012 - 07:46 AM.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#96    psyche101

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:51 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 15 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

By frame I merely meant the body configuration, as in 8 legs around a central body. Or even a variation thereof. As I said, I didn't mean insects specifically however the body configuration of a spider (in something akin to mammals for example) could lend itself well to environmental manipulation. Heck, a spider is practically a 'hand' all by itself. How is that not efficient? Who needs more hands when your entire body can manipulate objects as well (or better) as an 8 fingered hand attached to the rest of a body could?

I don't know, I'm just fleshing out the idea so far as I haven't given it a great deal of thought yet. I'm just kind of running with the spider thing at the moment, however I still think it is a possibility. You say you haven't seen anything that could discredit the anthropomorphic model yet I haven't seen anything to suggest it is paramount either. That's all I'm really getting at. It very well could be the base model for intelligent space faring beings, though to be honest I don't relish the idea much. Life is too wildly varied. So much so that I would be a bit disappointed if it were that way. Perhaps I have taken in too much sci-fi over the years. ^_^ :tu:

Edit: clarification.

Mate best concept so far I have seen offered to date, but I think we still have some serious problems with leverage. If a creature could say "spin a starship" it would have to be powered, I do not think we can get away from mining and the like when it comes to space travel, but I look forward to discussing this further. I think the next step is resources and how they can be attained and managed.
And I think the "hand" need an "arm" to manipulate.

But I will put more thought into it, now that I "get" the frame, but I must sign off, it's my daughters birthday today (8), and I am going to take her out for her Favourite dinner. - Don't ask LOL. :tu:

Edited by psyche101, 15 November 2012 - 07:53 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#97    Slave2Fate

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:54 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

One point I had not mentioned is that we are also looking for "Life as we know it" on "earth like worlds".

Would that not also suggest earth like evolution?

Possibly, yes. However it still hasn't been definitively shown that life could only exist or evolve on 'earth like worlds'. Not that I'm trying to imply that anything is possible however we don't fully know just yet what is or isn't possible to be honest.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#98    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:56 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

One point I had not mentioned is that we are also looking for "Life as we know it" on "earth like worlds".

Would that not also suggest earth like evolution?
So more like Dinosaurs then?

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
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#99    Slave2Fate

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:58 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Mate best concept so far I have seen offered to date, but I think we still have some serious problems with leverage. If a creature could say "spin a starship" it would have to be powered, I do not think we can get away from mining and the like when it comes to space travel, but I look forward to discussing this further. I think the next step is resources and how they can be attained and managed.
And I think the "hand" need an "arm" to manipulate.

But I will put more thought into it, now that I "get" the frame, but I must sign off, it's my daughters birthday today (8), and I am going to take her out for her Favourite dinner. - Don't ask LOL. :tu:

Wish your daughter a Happy Birthday from those of us state-side. :tu:

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#100    Slave2Fate

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:11 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Mate best concept so far I have seen offered to date, but I think we still have some serious problems with leverage. If a creature could say "spin a starship" it would have to be powered, I do not think we can get away from mining and the like when it comes to space travel, but I look forward to discussing this further. I think the next step is resources and how they can be attained and managed.
And I think the "hand" need an "arm" to manipulate.

But I will put more thought into it, now that I "get" the frame, but I must sign off, it's my daughters birthday today (8), and I am going to take her out for her Favourite dinner. - Don't ask LOL. :tu:

As to the leverage, yes an arm does give strength to the hand. A spider model actually has 8 hands at the end of their legs. Well, hooks anyway, but I don't see any reason why there couldn't be some sort of evolutionary variation there. The design couples full body manipulation as well as fine manipulation with individual limbs. Imagine the kind of contraptions that 8 limbs could manipulate! It would make driving a manual transmission or even something like flying a helicopter look like child's play. Also, a lever is one of the earliest tools made by man, so why not another intelligent species on the other side of the universe? The advent of tools greatly modifies the range of abilities of the tool user. :tu:

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#101    ouija ouija

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:23 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 15 November 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

I think the guy said it was a heart rate monitor.
Which guy? There was no sound on the video I watched :(

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#102    Rlyeh

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:22 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 15 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Which guy? There was no sound on the video I watched :(
The "victor" guy who supposely smuggled the tape out. I thought he mentioned it was a heart rate monitor, but now watching it again he doesn't seem to make any reference to it.

Around 5:30 he describes whats happening in the video.



#103    MidKn13ght

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:29 PM

OH!!! IT IS REAL!!!!! I see the virgin mary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh wait... never mind its just kramers mentos!!!! :rofl:




#104    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostHuttonEtAl, on 15 November 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

Forget an alien looking good, I would be suprised to see one that is even mildly human looking or humanoid looking. I would honestly be suprised if the aliens had 4 limbs or resembled any mammal we have seen on Earth. The only way that is even plausible is if they came from a planet exactly like earth, and that is still a shot in the dark IMO.
YES!!! I totally agree with you.

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#105    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

I recall one of those "what if... docudramas" where they send a probe to another world and explore the life there, the narrator suggests that "head, even number of limbs etc" is probably the most stable landdwelling design, you have the sensory organs in one place, able to rotate them a fair degree, you can elevate them over foliage and get them close to food etc.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.




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