Free will?

[aNoNymOus XO]

Ok before i say anything i would like to say i am a full on christian. not that i down anyone elses beliefs, never that! i just wanted to say that before i state the contents of this topic.

According to the bible we have free will. By my definition that means WE make the choices. yes, no. this way, that way.

I am having a problem wrapping my brain around something though....

If God already knows the end and He has made us with a plan then are we really living our lives "freely"

example: a game...if he makes the game and i am playing it. what is the point of playing it if he knows where i will go where i will move if i will win? i understand that WE may not know that stuff and that that is why He is the creater but what if i never asked to play?

that may be two different things actually *thinks*

i would love to hear your thoughts

[Halfwolf]

Ok before i say anything i would like to say i am a full on christian. not that i down anyone elses beliefs, never that! i just wanted to say that before i state the contents of this topic.

According to the bible we have free will. By my definition that means WE make the choices. yes, no. this way, that way.

I am having a problem wrapping my brain around something though....

If God already knows the end and He has made us with a plan then are we really living our lives "freely"

example: a game...if he makes the game and i am playing it. what is the point of playing it if he knows where i will go where i will move if i will win? i understand that WE may not know that stuff and that that is why He is the creater but what if i never asked to play?

that may be two different things actually *thinks*

i would love to hear your thoughts

There are many reads to the same destination, Free Will let's you choose which road to travel or you can ask for GOD's guidance and maybe you'll pick a smoother road. It's not about the destination it's all about the ride.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Halfwolf

[A Shadow]

No we have free will. We can do whatever we can do.

If everything was "plan out" or a game, then murderers and kidnappers are also part it. I don't see that being true. If it is then life might of well be one sicko reality show.

[kystranger]

The way I see things is kind of weird to be honest. I believe in both free will and predestination. I believe God in his infinite wisdom created this universe as a learning tool for us. Before we incarnate here on Earth we are taken aside by either God, Jesus, or other powerful heavenly beings. I think that they sit down with us and work out what we are going to learn/contribute/do during our lives. I don't think its planned on a daily basis (what we are going to eat, etc - that just sounds silly to me). But I do think that significan events are planned: what social/physical/spiritual issues we are going to face and when we are going to die. I think at that point we choose our parents, culture, etc to be born into and God sets certain obstacles in our path that we must face. These obstacles can be things like death of parents at a young age, born with physical or mental handicaps, death of a newborn/young child, or really whatever will help our spiritual selves grow. We have free will in that we can do whatever we want while we are down here ... but at the same time there are certain obstacles that must be met. Even if we fail at the obstacles that God puts in our path, we still learn from them ... and I think that is ok with Him. Like I said ... pretty weird huh?

[Mr. Miyagi]

There are always reasons for us doing things and sometimes these reasons are even unknown to us on a conscious level.

We are always a "slave", so to speak, to these reasons. Even if you were to do something you would not ordinarily do in order to excersize "free will" there is still a reason that dictated why you did this. In this sense Free Will is an illusion.

Thanks for reading!

[aNoNymOus XO]

The way I see things is kind of weird to be honest. I believe in both free will and predestination. I believe God in his infinite wisdom created this universe as a learning tool for us. Before we incarnate here on Earth we are taken aside by either God, Jesus, or other powerful heavenly beings. I think that they sit down with us and work out what we are going to learn/contribute/do during our lives. I don't think its planned on a daily basis (what we are going to eat, etc - that just sounds silly to me). But I do think that significan events are planned: what social/physical/spiritual issues we are going to face and when we are going to die. I think at that point we choose our parents, culture, etc to be born into and God sets certain obstacles in our path that we must face. These obstacles can be things like death of parents at a young age, born with physical or mental handicaps, death of a newborn/young child, or really whatever will help our spiritual selves grow. We have free will in that we can do whatever we want while we are down here ... but at the same time there are certain obstacles that must be met. Even if we fail at the obstacles that God puts in our path, we still learn from them ... and I think that is ok with Him. Like I said ... pretty weird huh?

to be completely honest....no not weird at all unless that kind of thought process makes me wierd then i guess we both are. thank you for your thoughts on this subject. it sounds to me as though you have given it some thought yourself before

[aNoNymOus XO]

wow thanks a lot you guys! its nice to know how other people think and feel about the same things that i do.

im guessing my biggest issue is the fact that i dont know how the story ends. a part of me wants to know but then again if i did whats the point. but like i said i never asked to play so i feel like my free will is not so free.

But regardless of that i am aware that God has a plan for me and that although i may have gone off the deep end sometimes...he always brings me back around.

[A Thinker]

Reading Mere Christianity helped me to think about things. Even though Lewis' opinions are just opinions, they also remind you to think outside of yourself. The main reason I love Lewis is because he causes us to think about things, which most christians of our day would rather "feel" their religion.

Timeline

this is an excerpt from there:

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday, He simply sees you doing them: because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow, He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way--because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action tin you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.

[norwood1026]

I do not believe that free will and predestination go hand in hand when it comes to Christianty I think it's an illusion. IF God does know what our future is then how can we choose our own path? I think people want to believe thatGod would never interfer with thier lives like that. I've heard that God has a plan for everyone so if that is the case then we dont have a choice.

[Mr. Miyagi]

wow thanks a lot you guys! its nice to know how other people think and feel about the same things that i do.

im guessing my biggest issue is the fact that i dont know how the story ends. a part of me wants to know but then again if i did whats the point. but like i said i never asked to play so i feel like my free will is not so free.

But regardless of that i am aware that God has a plan for me and that although i may have gone off the deep end sometimes...he always brings me back around.

Try and not worry so much about how the story ends. Focus on the page you're on right now...

[danielost]

Ok before i say anything i would like to say i am a full on christian. not that i down anyone elses beliefs, never that! i just wanted to say that before i state the contents of this topic.

According to the bible we have free will. By my definition that means WE make the choices. yes, no. this way, that way.

I am having a problem wrapping my brain around something though....

If God already knows the end and He has made us with a plan then are we really living our lives "freely"

example: a game...if he makes the game and i am playing it. what is the point of playing it if he knows where i will go where i will move if i will win? i understand that WE may not know that stuff and that that is why He is the creater but what if i never asked to play?

that may be two different things actually *thinks*

i would love to hear your thoughts

because if you dont play the game, then why should you have to pay the bet at the end of the game.

it is like that police officer knows that you are going to rob the bank and kill someone a week before you do so. can he arrest you.

Edited June 29, 2010 by danielost

[Black Hound]

Interesting thought to debate over. I have no opinion, one way or another and was told the quickest way to start a fight is getting in an argument over ones religion.

[aNoNymOus XO]

because if you dont play the game, then why should you have to pay the bet at the end of the game.

it is like that police officer knows that you are going to rob the bank and kill someone a week before you do so. can he arrest you.

agh! daniel that makes total sense! well i mean i think of it differently. i think of it in terms of my daughter i may know she is going to do certain things but i cant stop certain things from happening.

thanks!

[aNoNymOus XO]

Interesting thought to debate over. I have no opinion, one way or another and was told the quickest way to start a fight is getting in an argument over ones religion.

lol graveyard i never fight when it comes to religeon. i may have issues with MY free will thoughts but everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe. who am i to say they are wrong. a religeous battle is a battle never won

[aNoNymOus XO]

I do not believe that free will and predestination go hand in hand when it comes to Christianty I think it's an illusion. IF God does know what our future is then how can we choose our own path? I think people want to believe thatGod would never interfer with thier lives like that. I've heard that God has a plan for everyone so if that is the case then we dont have a choice.

so does that mean you dont believe in God or free will and predestination? im just asking cause i dont understand exactly what you mean when you say hand in hand with christianity. do you feel it does with other religeons? just a question

[aNoNymOus XO]

Try and not worry so much about how the story ends. Focus on the page you're on right now...

That would be the easier thing to do right trust me lol im working on it

[IamsSon]

Ok before i say anything i would like to say i am a full on christian. not that i down anyone elses beliefs, never that! i just wanted to say that before i state the contents of this topic.

According to the bible we have free will. By my definition that means WE make the choices. yes, no. this way, that way.

I am having a problem wrapping my brain around something though....

If God already knows the end and He has made us with a plan then are we really living our lives "freely"

example: a game...if he makes the game and i am playing it. what is the point of playing it if he knows where i will go where i will move if i will win? i understand that WE may not know that stuff and that that is why He is the creater but what if i never asked to play?

that may be two different things actually *thinks*

i would love to hear your thoughts

I think the "paradox" of Free Will while God knows everything only exists because we limit God's perspective to our own. What if God knows everything because He can see every possible consequence of every possible choice you can make.

We see a paradox because we think: "If I do this, God already knows I was going to do that, so I really had no choice." But maybe the reality is more along the lines of "No matter what I do God already knows I was going to do that and what the effects would be because He knows what the effects would be of any and every decision I could make."

I think this video explains that perspective: Imagining the Tenth Dimension

Edited June 29, 2010 by IamsSon

[StarMountainKid]

I would agree with Mr. Miyagi. As long as our minds remain conditioned by the society in which we live we have no true complete free will. We all live more or less conventional lives. Look at how much our behavior is a copy of everyone else's. If our behavior is motivated by the need to be in harmony with the society in which we live, our freedom of personal expression will always be limited.

As for the religious aspect of it, I don't know.

[+DieChecker]

I think there is something to both Predestination and Free Will. I believe that everyone has the option to make bad choices for themselves and others, but that if they follow where God leads them that they will be rewarded with His promises. Basically if you follow the rules you get the promised reward.

Just because God knows everything does not mean he has to Act on it. You can be at the top of the Empire State Building and know that you will not survive the fall, but that does not stop you from having the choice to leap.

The reality, I think, is somewhere between Complete Predestination and Complete Free Will. We are guided, but not railroaded.

[Agent X]

I personally cannot believe in Free Will.

here's the biggest problem that I have with it:

You have no other real choice but to choose God. If you do not choose God then you ill be sent to hell for all eternity and be tortured.

If you choose God then you must live your life by his rules and allow him to micromanage it. For example, if he says you must wear red tennisshoes that are Nike's with velcro and low cut, then you must wear those kinds of shoes or else you have committed a sin. If he sayhs worship him on Thursday then yhou must worship him on Thursday.

To me, that is not free will.

Free will is being allowed to live your life on you own terms.

Secondly, it seems to me that we are to blindly follow God and his instructions. If we have Free Will, we can deviate from those instructions. But we are not supposed to deviate. And since we're supposed to blindly follow God, then giving us free will allows us to decide to not follow God and live our own lives.

So, I am simply unable to believe in free will.

Because we really have no other choice in the matter. All other arguments point to is the illusion of choice.

[IamsSon]

I personally cannot believe in Free Will.

here's the biggest problem that I have with it:

You have no other real choice but to choose God. If you do not choose God then you ill be sent to hell for all eternity and be tortured.

If you choose God then you must live your life by his rules and allow him to micromanage it. For example, if he says you must wear red tennisshoes that are Nike's with velcro and low cut, then you must wear those kinds of shoes or else you have committed a sin. If he sayhs worship him on Thursday then yhou must worship him on Thursday.

To me, that is not free will.

Free will is being allowed to live your life on you own terms.

Secondly, it seems to me that we are to blindly follow God and his instructions. If we have Free Will, we can deviate from those instructions. But we are not supposed to deviate. And since we're supposed to blindly follow God, then giving us free will allows us to decide to not follow God and live our own lives.

So, I am simply unable to believe in free will.

Because we really have no other choice in the matter. All other arguments point to is the illusion of choice.

If there was no free will the you would not be able to choose not to follow God. You just argued for free will. The fact that decisions have consequences does not invalidate free will.

[+DieChecker]

You have no other real choice but to choose God. If you do not choose God then you ill be sent to hell for all eternity and be tortured.

Whaaaaa.......aat???

You do realize that more then half the people on Earth do Not follow a Monotheistic God, much less a Christian religon. Are you suggesting that these people were created to specifically not follow God? That they have no choice but to go to Hell?

[norwood1026]

so does that mean you dont believe in God or free will and predestination? im just asking cause i dont understand exactly what you mean when you say hand in hand with christianity. do you feel it does with other religeons? just a question

I'm not a Christians I used to be but no longer. I don't believe that the Christian God gives his followers a choice. As a Pagan ( & not all Pagans feel as I do) do not believe that even the Gods know the furture. I think the fates do but they don't share it with them. I think Christians are blinded by thier faith & just can't believe otherwise.

Just my thoughts.

[Agent X]

Whaaaaa.......aat???

You do realize that more then half the people on Earth do Not follow a Monotheistic God, much less a Christian religon. Are you suggesting that these people were created to specifically not follow God? That they have no choice but to go to Hell?

Anybody who does not choose God, anybody who is not a true Christian, will be sent to hell for all eternity and tortured. That's what the Christian religion teaches.

Which means that there will be only a few million people in heaven and billions of people in hell.

Because, you have to be saved by God then follow his tenets in order to be allowed in heaven.

[+DieChecker]

Anybody who does not choose God, anybody who is not a true Christian, will be sent to hell for all eternity and tortured. That's what the Christian religion teaches.

Which means that there will be only a few million people in heaven and billions of people in hell.

Because, you have to be saved by God then follow his tenets in order to be allowed in heaven.

But your prior post said there was no Free Will. So, how can those people choose anything? How can they follow, if they have no free will and no choice in what they do.

Perhaps you wish to restate your position more clearly.

The Christian idea that only Christians are saved is very clear, but that does not mean, even understanding that fact, that everyone will, or must, choose to follow the Christian God and Jesus. Just as teenagers will rebel and do all kinds of dangerous things that they know are dangerous, humans have the choice to follow God or not to.