Kerguelen, the microcontinent that was...

[Abramelin]

Kerguelen, the microcontinent that was...

[Ocean Drilling Program Leg 183 to the Kerguelen Plateau]

IN THE REMOTE southern Indian Ocean, straddling the Antarctic Polar Front, lies a mostly submarine plateau one-third the size of the contiguous United States. The Kerguelen Plateau is one example of a unique type of Earth feature, a large igneous province (LIP). One of the least understood features in the ocean basins, LIPs are believed to be the surface manifestations of massive pulses of volcanism that originated deep within Earth's mantle in association with narrow upwelling systems, known as mantle plumes or hotspots. The episodic nature of LIP eruptions documented in the geologic record, especially between 150 and 50 million years ago, is evidence that a more dynamic, unpredictable mode of mantle circulation, very different from that driving present-day plate motions, existed during Earth's past. LIPs preserve a record of mantle dynamics and may have also affected the Earth's environment in the past by potentially altering ocean circulation, climate conditions and sea level.

(...)

RESULTS. Surprising evidence recovered on Leg 183 revealed that the Kerguelen plateau had existed as a large landmass above sea level at three different times during an 80 million year period, before finally become submerged about 20 million years ago. The evidence consists of dark brown sediment overlying subaerially erupted lava flows, charcoal and wood fragments in sediments overlying igneous rocks, and conglomerates, which formed from sediments deposited in river beds, interlayered with lava flows. The final stage of volcanism forming the Kerguelen LIP produced magmas rich with gases such as carbon dioxide, oxides of sulfur, and water vapor, which may have caused global environmental change.

A link to a LARGE map : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...-Topography.jpg

---

Kerguelen continent

The Kerguelen Plateau was formed starting 110 million years ago from a series of large volcanic eruptions. The presence of soil layers in the basalt with included charcoal and conglomerate fragments of gneiss indicate that much of the plateau was above sea level as what is termed a microcontinent for three periods between 100 million years ago and 20 million years ago.

The so-called Kerguelen continent might have had tropical flora and fauna about 50 million years ago. The Kerguelen continent finally sank 20 million years ago and is now 1 – 2 km below sea level. It has sedimentary rocks similar to the ones found in Australia and India, suggesting they were once connected.

http://www.answers.com/topic/kerguelen-plateau

http://www.largeigneousprovinces.org/07apr.html

http://www.ig.utexas.edu/research/projects...g183/leg183.htm

And here it comes (lol) :

Could we eventually uncover a lost civilization on the sunken Kerguelen continent? And if so, what might have been its fate?

By around 110 million BC the first portions of the Kerguelen island continent had appeared. Large portions of the island continent would remain dry land for millions of years, after which they would all eventually submerge to become one with the sea floor again (with the last disappearing from the surface around 20,000,000 BC). This article lists some developments possibly relevant to the Kerguelen island continent, and any intelligent lifeforms which may have arisen or taken refuge there.

http://www.jmooneyham.com/lost-civilization-kerguelen.html

Have fun... a far older "Atlantis"..

Don't worry, it's nothing but science fiction.

It's just a possiblitiy, a civilization whiped out by time, a long time. No remnants will be discovered for the strong sea currents in that area will have whiped out anything that might give us a clue. These same currents will have flushed the top soil, and only leave an ancient, 24 millions year old rock bottom, the bootom they took samples of.

Great , eh?

-

From Monsters and Critics.com

Science News

Mini-continent once joined to India discovered in ocean

By DPA

May 4, 2007, 22:03 GMT

Bremerhaven, Germany - A mini-continent which was formerly joined to India has been discovered deep under the southern oceans by the world's most powerful ice research vessel, German scientists said Friday.

They spoke as the ship, the Polarstern, was due to dock Saturday in its home port of Bremerhaven, Germany after a 19-month research voyage to Antarctica.

The ninth phase of the voyage was a study of the undersea Kerguelen Plateau, which was orphaned after the ancient continents separated, with India drifting away from Antarctica.

The findings suggest that the Plateau, about the size of Germany and France combined, is just the tip of a bigger piece of lost continental crust.

Geophysicists did seismic and magnetic surveys to explore the gap between the little-understood plateau and East Antarctica, the Alfred Wegener Institute of polar research in Bremerhaven said.

'This plateau was created by a massive volcanic eruption shortly after India and Antarctica separated about 120 million years ago to form the Indian Ocean,' said geophysicist Karsten Gohl.

'For the first time, we have been able to see how the succession of volcanic deposits at the southern side of the Kerguelen Plateau, which reach right to the Antarctic continent, mostly have continental crust underneath them.

'Our findings show that a continental fragment of a size hitherto never suspected must have existed between India and the Antarctic.'

The data will be entered into a computer simulation to study ancient ocean currents and world climate, said Gohl, who is one of two project leaders of a worldwide study of such gaps, code-named Plates and Gates.

The Polarstern also explored the melting of the Antarctic ice shelves, which may be due to rising temperatures or salinity of deep ocean water or to volcanic activity.

The ship, which has berths for 50 scientists, hosted 450 scientists from 24 nations during its 84,000-nautical-mile voyage.

It can operate in temperatures 50 degrees below Celsius and steam without stopping through 150-centimetre ice.

© 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur

© Copyright 2007 by monstersandcritics.com.

This notice cannot be removed without permission.

====

What is a Submerged Continent?

Question and Answer: What is a Submerged Continent?

The term "submerged continent" is most often heard in association with the legendary lands of Atlantis or Mu. Atlantis and Mu never really existed, but there are a couple of real submerged continents around the world. Both are in the Southern Hemisphere. The submerged continents go by the names of Zealandia and the Kerguelen Plateau.

Zealandia is the largest of the two submerged continents, with a surface area of 3.5 million square kilometers, larger than Greenland and almost half the size of Australia. As its name suggests, the only part of the continent above water today are the islands of New Zealand. Zealandia quickly sunk when it broke off from Australia/Antarctica 83 million years ago. About 25 million years ago, Zealandia was completely underwater. Today, 93% is still underwater, with just 7% making up the New Zealand of today, which was created through tectonic action about 23 million years ago. Most of the submerged continent is less than 500 m (1,640 ft) below the surface.

Another submerged continent, far to the west, is called the Kerguelen Plateau or just Kerguelen. The continent is named after the Kerguelen islands, which along with Heard Island and the McDonald Islands are the only portions of the continent above the surface. Kerguelen is located in one of the regions of the world's oceans furthest from dry land, about 3,000 km southwest of Australia (1,864 mi) and 5,000 km (3,100 mi) south of India. Like Zealandia, Kerguelen was once part of the massive continent Gondwana, which was made up of practically all land masses in the present Southern Hemisphere. Kerguelen is smaller than Zealandia, with a surface area slightly larger than a million square kilometers, about three times the size of Japan. More than 99% of the continent is underwater.

Kerguelen began forming 110 million years ago, over the Kerguelen hotspot. Between 100 million years ago and 20 million years ago, the continent was above sea level three times, and may have had tropical flora and fauna 50 million years ago. Because of its size, Kerguelen is called a microcontinent. Kerguelen sank 20 million years ago and now lies 1-2 km (0.6 - 1.2 mi) below the ocean.

http://www.thewhatis.com/20553-What-is-a-S...d-Continent.php

Edited June 17, 2009 by Abramelin

[Emma_Acid]

Given that it sank 18 million years before humans emerged, I'll have to go with a simple "no".

[555soul]

Cool

[Abramelin]

Heh, you didn't read the science fiction part, and that's the biggest part in fact. It talks about the emergence of another intelligent race, many millions of years before our ancestors dropped from their trees.

And, I said "Atlantis" as a name for 'a' submerged continent with some kind of advanced civilization, not as Plato's Atlantis.

Hey, the mini-continent did exist, no doubt about that amongst scientists. What happened on that mini-continent while it was above water, that's another story. And because it is now too deep under the waves to research it well, anything, any fantasy is possible, right?

Edited June 17, 2009 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Btw, the last post was a reply to Emma. For God knows what reason I am not allowed to edit my own post.

--

Ah, ok, there is a limit to the time to edit a post, ok.

Well, this is a post about a REAL submerged continent. No bs. Where are you all??

Edited June 17, 2009 by Abramelin

[greggK]

Btw, the last post was a reply to Emma. For God knows what reason I am not allowed to edit my own post.

--

Ah, ok, there is a limit to the time to edit a post, ok.

Well, this is a post about a REAL submerged continent. No bs. Where are you all??

I stopped by here because the name is catchy; Kerguelen. Sort of just rolls off the tongue. Ker Gue Len. Nice roll. But, think about it! Whatever remnants are there, have been under that freezing-cold water for how many years? Where did thy fellows find the baby frozen elephant or whatever that was?

Edited June 17, 2009 by greggK

[Abramelin]

I stopped by here because the name is catchy; Kerguelen. Sort of just rolls off the tongue. Ker Gue Len. Nice roll. But, think about it! Whatever remnants are there, have been under that freezing-cold water for how many years? Where did thy fellows find the baby frozen elephant or whatever that was?

Don't forget: the area is under a mile or more sea. Then there are the very strong currents that will whipe the board clean.

The baby mammoth was found on land, in permafrost.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

Hello Abramelin,

And, I said "Atlantis" as a name for 'a' submerged continent with some kind of advanced civilization, not as Plato's Atlantis.

I'm going to assume you're not using the name Atlantis for the same reason most fringe theorists use it. That is, to be able to come back to it at some point and claim, "See, I told you it's Plato's Atlantis", or some such. It's been my experience that Atlantis is only used by fringe theorists as a "catch-all" phrase.

As I don't know much about such areas as the Kerguelen Plateau, although it is interesting, does it actually meet whatever requirements there are to be called either a continent or a micro-continent? I was under the impression that being of a basaltic origin, that that would preclude the use of such terms. Although I could be wrong.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Hello Abramelin,

I'm going to assume you're not using the name Atlantis for the same reason most fringe theorists use it. That is, to be able to come back to it at some point and claim, "See, I told you it's Plato's Atlantis", or some such. It's been my experience that Atlantis is only used by fringe theorists as a "catch-all" phrase.

As I don't know much about such areas as the Kerguelen Plateau, although it is interesting, does it actually meet whatever requirements there are to be called either a continent or a micro-continent? I was under the impression that being of a basaltic origin, that that would preclude the use of such terms. Although I could be wrong.

cormac

I said why I used the name "Atlantis", right?

I am very well aware of the fact that the Kerguelen Plateau, or the Kerguelen Large Igneous Province (according to one of the links I posted in my intial post here) as it is called officially, is not a real continent.

Use your fantasy: I did not claim to have found the 'one and only true Atlantis', it's just a subermerged area that was large enough to be considered a mini continent. It submerged for the last time 24 million years ago, so anything could have lived there. Even a civilization created by non-humans. And that is all there is to it.

And we will never know for sure what was possible; anything that could possibly have lived there, even some kind of civilization, has been whiped clean in time.

[cormac mac airt]

Sorry I interrupted your fantasy. Carry on.

cormac

[+DieChecker]

Looks like it would have been very cold. Maybe they should do underwater radar mapping looking for the Island of R'lyeh where Great Cthulhu sleeps.

[drakonwick]

Interesting read! But, taking into consideration that the massive island is the result of massive volcanic upheavals, I am quite sure that

Kerguelen may have took hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years to be created by this vulcanism. The chance of any life forms

existing on this island could be considerably slim.

Kerguelen plateau had existed as a large landmass above sea level at three different times during an 80 million year period, before finally become submerged about 20 million years ago.

This is another good reason why it would be hard for most life forms to live on this island.

[Abramelin]

Interesting read! But, taking into consideration that the massive island is the result of massive volcanic upheavals, I am quite sure that

Kerguelen may have took hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years to be created by this vulcanism. The chance of any life forms

existing on this island could be considerably slim.

This is another good reason why it would be hard for most life forms to live on this island.

This is from the first post:

Kerguelen began forming 110 million years ago, over the Kerguelen hotspot. Between 100 million years ago and 20 million years ago, the continent was above sea level three times, and may have had tropical flora and fauna 50 million years ago. Because of its size, Kerguelen is called a microcontinent. Kerguelen sank 20 million years ago and now lies 1-2 km (0.6 - 1.2 mi) below the ocean.

And... do those lava flows scare of the people, animals and plants living on Hawaii, an island in an archipelago formed above another hotspot?

Edited June 18, 2009 by Abramelin

[drakonwick]

This is from the first post:

Kerguelen began forming 110 million years ago, over the Kerguelen hotspot. Between 100 million years ago and 20 million years ago, the continent was above sea level three times, and may have had tropical flora and fauna 50 million years ago. Because of its size, Kerguelen is called a microcontinent. Kerguelen sank 20 million years ago and now lies 1-2 km (0.6 - 1.2 mi) below the ocean.

And... do those lava flows scare of the people, animals and plants living on Hawaii, an island in an archipelago formed above another hotspot?

I suppose you have a point there! I never really thought about it like that.

[Leonardo]

This is from the first post:

Kerguelen began forming 110 million years ago, over the Kerguelen hotspot. Between 100 million years ago and 20 million years ago, the continent was above sea level three times, and may have had tropical flora and fauna 50 million years ago. Because of its size, Kerguelen is called a microcontinent. Kerguelen sank 20 million years ago and now lies 1-2 km (0.6 - 1.2 mi) below the ocean.

And... do those lava flows scare of the people, animals and plants living on Hawaii, an island in an archipelago formed above another hotspot?

Given the Kergualen Plateau's position of relative isolation from any of the significant landmasses of past geological era's (I don't believe it was ever a part of any of the major continents) - and that it was not part of the great Southern continent of Gondwana, but a relatively recent extrusion of igneous rock, I find it unlikely that any of the major fauna of those eras would have populated the region.

Certainly the flora was present, and it is not difficult to conclude that insects were present also. In the latter part of its existence above sea level birds and perhaps some marine mammals/reptiles such as seals, tortoises/turtles, etc (or their ancestors) could also have populated regions of the plateau.

The evolution of any 'technologically intelligent' species on the Plateau would also seem unlikely as we have no precedent for the evolution of any such species apart from the hominid lineage anywhere else in the world - and the pre-hominids which evolved would not have been present on Kerguelen.

All this is contingent, of course, on Kerguelen being isolated as I believe it was. If it could be shown to have been connected to a major continent with 'higher order' organisms from which an technologically intelligent species may have evolved then the possibility might exist (however remote it would still be).

[TheSearcher]

Leonardo, you're correct if you go for the purely scientific aproach, but as Abramelin said, he posted this more as an appeal to ones imagination, as opposed to saying that it was the truth. He even says it is science fiction.

Don't worry, it's nothing but science fiction.

It's just a possiblitiy, a civilization whiped out by time, a long time. No remnants will be discovered for the strong sea currents in that area will have whiped out anything that might give us a clue. These same currents will have flushed the top soil, and only leave an ancient, 24 millions year old rock bottom, the bootom they took samples of.

Great , eh?

This said, who said that only hominids ever went up the long road to inteligence? I'm fairly sure that nature had previous (if unsuccessfull) tries. Who knows, maybe maybe there was a race of nearly intelligent insects or dino's a few million years back. The odds of finding evidence of that are next to nill.

I find that the beauty of the imagination.

Just see this as an excercise of thinking waaaaaay outside the box

[Abramelin]

Given the Kergualen Plateau's position of relative isolation from any of the significant landmasses of past geological era's (I don't believe it was ever a part of any of the major continents) - and that it was not part of the great Southern continent of Gondwana, but a relatively recent extrusion of igneous rock, I find it unlikely that any of the major fauna of those eras would have populated the region.

Certainly the flora was present, and it is not difficult to conclude that insects were present also. In the latter part of its existence above sea level birds and perhaps some marine mammals/reptiles such as seals, tortoises/turtles, etc (or their ancestors) could also have populated regions of the plateau.

The evolution of any 'technologically intelligent' species on the Plateau would also seem unlikely as we have no precedent for the evolution of any such species apart from the hominid lineage anywhere else in the world - and the pre-hominids which evolved would not have been present on Kerguelen.

All this is contingent, of course, on Kerguelen being isolated as I believe it was. If it could be shown to have been connected to a major continent with 'higher order' organisms from which an technologically intelligent species may have evolved then the possibility might exist (however remote it would still be).

From one of the links - http://www.answers.com/topic/kerguelen-plateau - in the first post:

"The so-called Kerguelen continent might have had tropical flora and fauna about 50 million years ago. The Kerguelen continent finally sank 20 million years ago and is now 1 – 2 km below sea level. It has sedimentary rocks similar to the ones found in Australia and India, suggesting they were once connected."

Leonardo, I am not a geologist, so what I am saying is maybe bs, but it could be that the Kerguelen Plateau was indeed connected to India and Australia - like geologists think it once was - then it broke off and drifted away. Then it moved over a hotspot - or a hotspot moved under it, like the one under Yellowstone Park - and in time got overflown by lava.

Or it was indeed 'nothing but' a hotspot, creating it's own 'continent'. In that last case, I think of Iceland or Hawaii, or even the Galapagos Archipelago.

And if it is indeed true that India, the Kerguelen and Australia were once connected, the Kerguelen might have had other life forms than just those that washed ashore or came flying, like for instance mammals and marsupials, so the flora and fauna might have been more like that on a 'real' continent.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Leonardo, you're correct if you go for the purely scientific aproach, but as Abramelin said, he posted this more as an appeal to ones imagination, as opposed to saying that it was the truth. He even says it is science fiction.

This said, who said that only hominids ever went up the long road to inteligence? I'm fairly sure that nature had previous (if unsuccessfull) tries. Who knows, maybe maybe there was a race of nearly intelligent insects or dino's a few million years back. The odds of finding evidence of that are next to nill.

I find that the beauty of the imagination.

Just see this as an excercise of thinking waaaaaay outside the box

Well, here is a bit more of the science fiction:

" (..) The premise: An evolutionary development somewhat similar to apes-to-human occurs many millions of years before the rise of humanity. And rather than involving apes, this consists of a couple species from an independently evolved primate family (highly distinct from humanity's own primate ancestors)-- or pseudo-primate-- evolving into something else: something where one symbiont possesses a smallish humanoid shape and likeness, and human-like intelligence-- but is still a decidedly different species from 21st century humanity. The second species is something like a much smaller and less intelligent version than the first, which serves to complement the larger, smarter species. This symbiotic pair of species might live and thrive millions of years before humanity emerges on Earth. If such a civilization developed upon the Kerguelen continent (and rarely ventured beyond it), then about a million years afterwards all signs of the culture would have vanished as the entire continent sank beneath the seas. 20 million years of wear and tear since would mop up any remaining obvious clues, leaving 21st century humanity unsuspecting that such a people ever existed. Or that they might still survive today. (...) "

http://www.jmooneyham.com/lost-civilization-kerguelen.html

" (...) [Caution: Extreme speculation ahead; this section mostly created for "What If?" entertainment value]

Millions of years of fierce competition between the smart Antarctic reptile predators and their pseudo-primate prey boosted the intelligence and physical capacities of both. Subsequent migration to the Kerguelen island(s) continent as Antarctica iced over also accelerated evolution of the species, though perhaps the pseudo-primates more so than the reptiles, as the repeated intervening aquatic environment/stage(s) were more alien to the pseudo-primates, and required more adaptation on their part. Once commited to Kerguelen, both the reptiles and pseudo-primates found themselves pressed even harder in evolutionary terms, as Kerguelen was subject to relatively frequent wholesale cataclysms: vast land sweeping tsunamis stemming from underwater landslides and faraway volcanic eruptions and cosmic impacts in the oceans, with the worst occuring on average every 3,000 to 320,000 years or so, and somewhat less damaging events happening every 100,000 years. Added to this was occasional disasterous volcanic activity in Kerguelen itself, as well as ongoing climate changes. All this would combine to drive all large animal life extinct on Kerguelen, or else mercilessly push its evolution to heights 20th century man will never suspect.(...) "

http://www.jmooneyham.com/drag.html

[Emma_Acid]

(..) The premise: An evolutionary development somewhat similar to apes-to-human occurs many millions of years before the rise of humanity. And rather than involving apes, this consists of a couple species from an independently evolved primate family (highly distinct from humanity's own primate ancestors)-- or pseudo-primate-- evolving into something else: something where one symbiont possesses a smallish humanoid shape and likeness, and human-like intelligence-- but is still a decidedly different species from 21st century humanity. The second species is something like a much smaller and less intelligent version than the first, which serves to complement the larger, smarter species. This symbiotic pair of species might live and thrive millions of years before humanity emerges on Earth. If such a civilization developed upon the Kerguelen continent (and rarely ventured beyond it), then about a million years afterwards all signs of the culture would have vanished as the entire continent sank beneath the seas. 20 million years of wear and tear since would mop up any remaining obvious clues, leaving 21st century humanity unsuspecting that such a people ever existed.

Fine I'm sure there are species of ape we don't know about, but they wouldn't have been "technologically advanced". For a civilisation to be technologically advanced it needs to be global. We have never discovered a previously untouched tribe in the rainforest that have independently invented cars or tvs. Likewise, a branch in the ape family line existing on its own tiny soon-to-be doomed continent would not have been able to become technologically advanced.

[Abramelin]

Fine I'm sure there are species of ape we don't know about, but they wouldn't have been "technologically advanced". For a civilisation to be technologically advanced it needs to be global. We have never discovered a previously untouched tribe in the rainforest that have independently invented cars or tvs. Likewise, a branch in the ape family line existing on its own tiny soon-to-be doomed continent would not have been able to become technologically advanced.

You cannot tell for sure because our own, human civilization is the only one which we can go by.

If we would have met more and non-human civilizations. then we could say that so and so is needed for a species to develop a technological advanced civilization.

And on the Kerguelen Plateau, even if it was regularly devasted by earthquakes and volcanism, there may have been time enough - many millions of years - for a species to develop something like a civilization, maybe even a technologically advanced civilization.

You cannot simply rule out the possibility, based only on what we humans did in the distant past or at present in the rainforests.

[questionmark]

You cannot tell for sure because our own, human civilization is the only one which we can go by.

If we would have met more and non-human civilizations. then we could say that so and so is needed for a species to develop a technological advanced civilization.

And on the Kerguelen Plateau, even if it was regularly devasted by earthquakes and volcanism, there may have been time enough - many millions of years - for a species to develop something like a civilization, maybe even a technologically advanced civilization.

You cannot simply rule out the possibility, based only on what we humans did in the distant past or at present in the rainforests.

So far, there is neither theoretical or practical evidence that intelligence could develop with a different set of rules as the ones known. It is but the cumulative experience pared with the capability of projecting them to other circumstances.

To be able to make a large number of experiences in a delimited period of time (in our case several million years) you need a certain number of individuals capable of transmitting experiences made, unless you want to attribute them a biologically impossible large life span.

Human intelligence is the result of several hundred millions of years of evolution, with probably billions of individuals (not all would be considered human) making experiences. I fail to see how that can be replicated in less then 1% of the time and considerably less individuals.

[Abramelin]

>Questionmark:

So far, there is neither theoretical or practical evidence that intelligence could develop with a different set of rules as the ones known. It is but the cumulative experience pared with the capability of projecting them to other circumstances.

I see no reason why that could not have happened on the Kerguelen.

>Q:

To be able to make a large number of experiences in a delimited period of time (in our case several million years) you need a certain number of individuals capable of transmitting experiences made, unless you want to attribute them a biologically impossible large life span.

What makes you think there were not enough individuals capable of transmitting experiences? And why the need for impossibly long life spans? After the Toba volcano exploded some 75,000 years ago, just several thousands of humans survived. That seemed to have been enough to go on, even though the remaining humans would have had a very hard time coping with the circumstances back then.

>Q:

Human intelligence is the result of several hundred millions of years of evolution, with probably billions of individuals (not all would be considered human) making experiences. I fail to see how that can be replicated in less then 1% of the time and considerably less individuals.

The species that may have lived on Kerguelen didn't just drop from the air, they may have went though a previous evolution on the combined landmass of India, Australia and the Kerguelen. Then they got separated, and the evoloution just went on, and maybe in a different direction, as often happens on isolated landmasses/islands.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Abramelin

[questionmark]

I see no reason why that could not have happened on the Kerguelen.

I do because there was not enough time nor enough individuals, as said before

What makes you think there were not enough individuals capable of transmitting experiences? And why the need for impossibly long life spans? After the Toba volcano exploded some 75,000 years ago, just several thousands of humans survived. That seemed to have been enough to go on, even though the remaining humans would have had a very hard time coping with the circumstances back then.

like, for example, those surviving humans already had millions of years of experience through evolution.

The species that may have lived on Kerguelen didn't just drop from the air, they may went though a previous evolution on the combined landmass of India, Australia and the Kerguelen. Then they got separated, and the evoloution just went on.

And so intelligence could also come from the visit by the Nibblers from Niburu or by a Pentecostal Holy Spirit coming down.... but there is no evidence to that. We can speculate as much as we want, that would make fine Science Fiction, but to make Science has a set of probabilities, that first form a theory and are later, by acquisition of additional information, formed to a scientific rule.

So far, all we know about isolated groups of less than the minimum number of individuals required for technological advance is that they, at best, stay at the level acquired previously. If you don't have the critical mass, no reaction.

ED: Typo

Edited June 18, 2009 by questionmark

[Abramelin]

> Questionmark:

I do because there was not enough time nor enough individuals, as said before

You just cannot be sure about that.

>Q:

like, for example, those surviving humans already had millions of years of experience through evolution

But the hypothetical species on Kerguelen had too. Like I said, they didn't drop from the air, they may have evolved on the combined landmass of India, Australia and Kerguelen.

And you talk about millions of years? Ten millions of years before present our ancestors were still small primates trying to fight off many predators while trying to survive in the tree tops. If that is true, the same or something similar may have happened to the species that continued evolving on the Kerguelen.

>Q:

And so intelligence could also come from the visit by the Nibblers from Niburu or by a Pentecostal Holy Spirit coming down.... but there is no evidence to that. We can speculate as much as we want, that would make fine Science Fiction, but to make Science has a set of probabilities, that first form a theory and are later, by acquisition of additional information, frormed to a scientific rule.

So far, all we know about isolated groups of less than the minimum number of individuals required for technological advance is that they, at best, stay at the level acquired previously. If you don't have the critical mass, no reaction.

Intelligence is present in many species around us today. But just because we out-dominate them, they have no real chance of evolving into something 'more'. That may change as soon as we die out, or when they get the chance to develop without our interference.

Yes, science has a set of probabilities that formed to a scientific rule. And still I am not as certain as you appear to be that it is impossible that some species was able to evolve to an intelligent, and even technological species in the millions of years of isolation on a mini-continent (or whatever you want to call it) the size of Japan.

Btw: check what the socalled New Caledonian crows are doing and are capable of; they developed in isolation, and there are scientists that say they are now in the same stage of development as stone-age men. Given the chance, anything is possible, but we are just too focussed on our own species.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Abramelin

[questionmark]

But the hypothetical species on Kerguelen had too. Like I said, they didn't drop from the air, they may have evolved on the combined landmass of India, Australia and Kerguelen.

And you talk about millions of years? Ten millions of years before present our ancestors were still small primates trying to fight off many predators while trying to survive in the tree tops. If that is true, the same or something similar may have happened to the species that continued evolving on the Kerguelen.

But how many millions and how many billions of experiences before the first primate like beast climbed on trees?

And, no its not only the experience of hominids that are part of human intelligence, but the experience since evolution created memory.

Btw: check what the socalled New Caledonian crows are doing and are capable of; they developed in isolation, and there are scientists that say they are now in the same stage of development as stone-age men. Given the chance, anything is possible, but we are just too focussed on our own species.

Sorry to tell you, but those birds are more evidence for my stance than for yours. Birds have been around for a longer period of time than hominids, yet their most advanced specimen is only capable of using a stick.

The answer? Limited transmission of information among individuals. And that Crow mothers show their offspring to use a stick to get maggots clearly demonstrates that it is not a congenital capability but a trained one. Why is there a limited transmission among individuals? Because the numbers are too low.