10148 replies to this topic

[Oniomancer]

Lord Vetinari, on 11 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

I'm not sure whether I'd call it craftsmanship,or bodging, really; wouldn't it be more craftsman-like to construct something neatly & elegantly out of uniform size blocks that fit neatly rather than having to bodge it by sawing bits off corners and shoehorning bits in here & there? Although I have heard craftsmanship described as "the art of fitting together things that don't fit", so maybe it is. At any rate, couldn't the AAs have arranged it that the blocks fitted properly to begin with rather than trying to make blocks that didn't fit fit?

Which is more work, selecting a bunch of rocks that almost fit and removing just enough to make them or taking any old rocks that don't fit at all and removing however much is necessary to do so uniformly regardless?

[Oniomancer]

seeder, on 11 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

zoser - who didnt know Peru can freeze till I proved it for him, keeps banging on about smooth shiny rocks and that they CAN ONLY  be done by heat...now I posted a link a day or 2 back so I wouldnt forget to bring something up...then I forgot about it...

but its come back again.. (thanks to zoser for endlessly repeating things)

so heres a highly polished slab of rock. click for bigger

polished.jpg

image source
http://www.physicalg...ntals/10af.html

know what polished that? Its wasnt heat...nor man...

But a glacier...ice and time

so as we are informed by zoser that Peru doesnt freeze, to further prove this...heres a huge glacier...(in Peru)

http://en.wikipedia....aya_Glacier.jpg

So would it not be entirely possible, and plausible, that some already polished rocks were used?

Not that I feel I have to find reasons for pumapunku... my mind is already made up but I do like to prove zoser wrong.

Only high heat can polish? think again...

I'll add this to that:

http://geology.about...saskrubrock.htm

Presumably we can infer from this that the creators possess advanced heat generating technology, and so they do, as evidenced by the amount of steam it produces.

Interesting that in de jong's video, we find the majority of shine as concentrated in the two lowermost rows at the level of animal traffic, with some extending to human level. I wonder how far it it actually goes in most cases?

[zoser]

Oniomancer, on 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I'll add this to that:

http://geology.about...saskrubrock.htm

Presumably we can infer from this that the creators possess advanced heat generating technology, and so they do, as evidenced by the amount of steam it produces.

Interesting that in de jong's video, we find the majority of shine as concentrated in the two lowermost rows at the level of animal traffic, with some extending to human level. I wonder how far it it actually goes in most cases?

Just more bizarre irrelevancies.  No idea what point is being made here.  I do like Mr O thought.

[zoser]

seeder, on 11 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

zoser - who didnt know Peru can freeze till I proved it for him, keeps banging on about smooth shiny rocks and that they CAN ONLY  be done by heat...now I posted a link a day or 2 back so I wouldnt forget to bring something up...then I forgot about it...

but its come back again.. (thanks to zoser for endlessly repeating things)

so heres a highly polished slab of rock. click for bigger

polished.jpg

image source
http://www.physicalg...ntals/10af.html

know what polished that? Its wasnt heat...nor man...

But a glacier...ice and time

so as we are informed by zoser that Peru doesnt freeze, to further prove this...heres a huge glacier...(in Peru)

http://en.wikipedia....aya_Glacier.jpg

So would it not be entirely possible, and plausible, that some already polished rocks were used?

Not that I feel I have to find reasons for pumapunku... my mind is already made up but I do like to prove zoser wrong.

Only high heat can polish? think again...

Not polish.

Vitrification (me thinks he knows that really).

See here:

http://secretsofthes...trified-stones/

It's all there; I can't read it for you.

[zoser]

psyche101, on 11 January 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Do you know what a template is?

Yes but how does it help with this:



The more I read these bizarre posts the more I really draw the conclusion that people are either living in dreamland or don't have a clue what they are talking about or both.

How on God's earth is a template going to help with irregular stonework.

God help the minds of some of you people.

How can individual templates possibly produce work as accurately as that?

Edited by zoser, 11 January 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[zoser]

Wearer of Hats, on 11 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

An extension for you Zoser...
where are the trial buildings? Where are the less advanced versions? Where did they do the moulding? Why is PP unfinished?

No evidence of trial buildings is there?  We only see shoddier work built on top of precision work in the vast majority of cases.

Where did they do the moulding?  Peter Smith's workshop?  How earth do I know?  Who cares?

Was PP unfinished or was it destroyed?  What does it say to you when shattered fragments are strewn across a wide area?  Unfinished work or cataclysmic disaster?  Looks more like a disaster to me.

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 11 January 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

(1) Enough CaO in andesite. According to one poster it's like 6%. If it was 20 % or more, the rock would become like a soup when treated with acid..

5.2% not enough.   You know that really.

(2) Vitrification (ie, giving it a gloss) is possible by applying acids. Fact: They still use that nowadays.


These people say otherwise.  Proof needed to contradict them.  Show me where acid vitrifies granite please.  

http://www.ethosmarb...ification.shtml

(3) There are enough plants in Peru and the Amazon jungle that have more than enough acid. The problem is finding out which one of them the Incas used. The plant we are looking for may be standing in front of your window.

Speculation and no proof.  As you say "the problem is......."  (that's a big problem).

Davidovits has already proven it. He was able to mold rock by using plant acids; I posted a link to his paper a couple of times. We are here only talking about chemically altering the outer layer of rock (granite and andesite), or your 'vitrification

No proof.  Plus the moulding goes very deep.  My pictures proved that.  Your ignoring key evidence.

(4) No need to penetrate quickly.

So how long does your chemical take to act on rock to completely soften it?  Heat can do that.  Chemicals?  Never.

(5) No need to treat it. Just pour the liquid over a finished rock, and every hole and crack will be 'vitrified'.

The problem I identified was the quantity needed.  Are you proposing that they dipped 50 tonne blocks in an acid bath to soften them?  The pock marks and mould marks go deep and all over the rocks in some cases.  How could they be coated if not dipped in a bath?

You have posted several photos of accurately cut stones, stones of which even a blind man can see they have been pounded on with some rock giving its surface a zillion tiny dents.

You conveniently skipped past those posts where I asked you about it.

Pure conjecture.  No proof that the precision blocks at Sacsayhuaman and Cuzco were pounded.  Far more evidence exists that they were moulded.  I have provided many pictures that prove this.  You have produced none to show that they were pounded.  The Inca walls definitely were.  Not the precision ones.  You have never attempted to explain the mould marks.

The burden is on you Abe.  You have provided no evidence.  I have provided ample.

[Oniomancer]

zoser, on 11 January 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Just more bizarre irrelevancies.  No idea what point is being made here.  I do like Mr O thought.

Hardly irrelevant. If there's vitrification, and it's a product of the manufacturing process, one would expect it to be on all the surfaces equally, not limited to certain heights within easy reach.

Quote

Not polish.

Vitrification (me thinks he knows that really).

See here:

http://secretsofthes...trified-stones/

It's all there; I can't read it for you.

[bmk1245]

Abramelin, on 09 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I think it's no coincidence these protuberances are almost always near the bottom (or edge) of the stone. If the Incas did indeed move these stones using leverage, then that is where one expects these protuberances.

Yes, but some smaller stones have two protrusions close to each other, while other larger stones completely lack of those (maybe had been pounded/chiseled off, or hidden in the wall?).

[Oniomancer]

zoser, on 11 January 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Yes but how does it help with this:



The more I read these bizarre posts the more I really draw the conclusion that people are either living in dreamland or don't have a clue what they are talking about or both.

How on God's earth is a template going to help with irregular stonework.

God help the minds of some of you people.

How can individual templates possibly produce work as accurately as that?

The scribe method shown in the nova video was demonstrated as feasible. There's more than one way to make a template too. A strip of clay pressed against the surface to be matched would work. A clever person could even rig a primitive profile gauge. http://en.wikipedia....i/Profile_gauge

[zoser]

Abramelin, on 11 January 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

This is the video Oniomancer posted:

How to precisely shape rock with primitive tools:
http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-3-of-6

This is the transcript:
http://www.pbs.org/w...s/2404inca.html

Intro:
http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-1-of-6

"Aliens" (a whole village) moving a huge stone:
http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-2-of-6

"Melting" stone using mirrors... not. And part of the Inca Trail... sigh:
http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-4-of-6

A whole village building a suspension bridge from rope in 3 days (and how to prepare guinea pig):
http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-5-of-6

How to walk over a suspension bridge and not sh1t your pants:
http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-6-of-6

Especially that remark from the commentator was nice: only use the rails for balance, but don't lean on it or it will topple over...

Btw, I found out the best way to do it (certainly if you are 6 feet tall like I am) is to walk with bent legs, almost like a frog. The Peruvians will laugh at you from both sides... and you will laugh too, once you've crossed it and swear to everything holy you won't do that ever again (forgetting you have to get back too...).

.

Here's the finished result from your video clip (recommend zoom in to get a better comparison)



Here's some precision work from Cuzco:







That people are approving your posts Abe either says that they are doing the ostrich ritual or not looking at what you are posting.

What your motive is for posting this nonsense I dread to think.

The precision work has withstood possibly earthquakes and all kind of abuse.  Your example in the first picture would not withstand a kick from a pair of steel toe caps. And the sample of work was pitifully small.

Your posts are dreadful Abe they really are.

Shame on you guys for trying to argue against the truth.  That's all I can say/

[zoser]

Oniomancer, on 11 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

The scribe method shown in the nova video was demonstrated as feasible. There's more than one way to make a template too. A strip of clay pressed against the surface to be matched would work. A clever person could even rig a primitive profile gauge. http://en.wikipedia....i/Profile_gauge

Refutation:

Many of the blocks are cut to precision in 3 dimensions.  Try and get a template in clay to do that.   Utterly impossible.

[Oniomancer]

zoser, on 11 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Refutation:

Many of the blocks are cut to precision in 3 dimensions.  Try and get a template in clay to do that.   Utterly impossible.

Not if you're only working one side at a time.

Really zoser, if we keep holding hands like this, people are going to talk.

[zoser]

Oniomancer, on 11 January 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Hardly irrelevant. If there's vitrification, and it's a product of the manufacturing process, one would expect it to be on all the surfaces equally, not limited to certain heights within easy reach.

No real proof of that.  The vitrification is difficult to see and needs the correct angle and light conditions.  Not surprising because on some samples the vitrification is only an extremely thin layer.  

I would fully expect it to be difficult to see and that's what the observers report.

Furthermore over time it has peeled of on some stones.  

Again what you are saying is unsupportable and the argument is at best very weak.

[zoser]

Oniomancer, on 11 January 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

Not if you're only working one side at a time.

Really zoser, if we keep holding hands like this, people are going to talk.

Can't be done Mr O.  Practically and reasonably impossible.  Why not make uniform blocks if you need to make a template for every unique block?  How would a template give the accuracy?

Just unfeasable.