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why did satan get kicked out of heaven


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#826    Etu Malku

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 02:56 AM

View PostLostSouls7, on 20 July 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

So the devil was God's Shadow side?

Don't they say we all have a Shadow Self?
maybe we all have a little Devil in us then :)

and no the Devil didn't make you do it... it's was YOU who choose to do it!
I can't believe people blame a monster with horns for things THEY did.

thanks
Don't mistake Satan as only the anti-Christian boogeyman created by the Judeo-Christian world. He is much more than that Abrahamic name, Satan has always existed, only under other names and guises, Satan is a powerful and primordial archetype of man's psyche.

This archetype is the reflection of how we perceive ourselves in relation to what we call the "others". Satan is the negative definition of what we believe is human. He is a social and cultural phenomenon and as old as humanity itself. There has always and will always, be essentially two worldviews consisting of oppositions and they are "Us & Them".

Sumerian and Akkadian tablets concur this worldview from the earliest known writings, the ancient Egyptian word for an Egyptian meant "human", the Greek word for non-Greeks was "barbaroi". The Jewish Essenes called non-Essenes "ha satan" (adversary), Zoroastrianism set forth the dualistic "good" (what we believe in) and "evil" (what they believe in).

"A society does not simply discover its others, it fabricates them, by selecting, isolating, and emphasizing as aspect of another people's life, and making it symbolize their difference" - William Scott Green (Professor of the history of religion - ancient Judaism, biblical studies, and the theory of religion).


So, who is this Satan? He is who you are not!

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#827    Jesus Loves Us

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:14 AM




#828    Etu Malku

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

View PostJesus Loves Us, on 20 July 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:




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#829    markprice

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:32 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 19 July 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Gentlemen, gentlemen . . . the devil fell away from god of his own free will, in this respect it proves that evil was in the world before man and that the devil already had a 'mutilated' soul . . . but who would we hold accountable for this other than his Maker, god?

Oh yeah, the whole choice thing.

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The myth of the Fall originates in The Book of Enoch, and is outside of the Canon. Yet by the time the New Testament was compiled the influence of Enoch had been absorbed, along with elements of the Persian Zoroastrian religion, Judea being under Persian rule from the 6th to 4th centuries B.C. In their cosmology there are two principles of Ahura Mazda, being creative, and Ahriman, being destructive. So evenly matched are they that the slightest flux can topple the balance, and mortal-kind are constantly being drawn to one side or the other. Originally the Devil was the shadow side of God, His dark aspect.

Jesus based a lot of his teachings on that book.

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As the Hebrew religion evolved, so did this „shadow‟, until it broke away from God and became a separate power having its own free Will. However, with this separation came the natural dualistic attribution of God‟s other characteristics, so that the Shadow also becomes His destructive and malign aspect, whilst the Light becomes everything good.

It would be interesting to psychoanalyze the god of the OT. Lots of brutal imagery to work through...

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Weak, decadent, and sick people, whose will to power has declined, will give themselves a God who is purely good, according to Nietzsche.

That's sort of like conceding then awarding yourself the best prize for failure. I don't think that is entirely accurate.

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The "Fall" should be understood as the Spirit descended to Flesh. The vision of a cosmic struggle, forces of good contending against forces of evil, derived originally from Jewish apocalyptic sources and developed by sectarian groups like the Essenes as they struggled against the forces they saw against them. God asks all the angels in heaven to bow before Adam, the new creation. Satan refuses to bow, believing obedience to humans to be idolatry against God, and is swiftly cast out of heaven for his disobedience. This is an example of self-sacrificing love, agape, martyr. But instead of sacrificing material for spiritual fulfillment, he sacrifices spirit for spirit.

Carl Jung saw the myth of figures such as the Lucifer/Satan archetype as expressing "the shortcomings of the world as conceived by the human soul." Lucifer/Satan "stands as the prototype of human civilizing effort."

I think the spirit descended a lot further than the flesh. They(Enoch) also said the problem was excellent passionate music etc. The arts are not to blame for the fall of Satan's crew IMO. Bowing before man is just Islamic thinking, right? That is equally false IMO so I would have to agree with Satan on that one. I think Jung would say we project everything bad on to Satan, but I think there is more to it than that: there is also a point where most people draw the line and say something in particular is one thing I would never do! Then things as bad or worse than that happen all the time, so what then could be the source of such atrocities? If you break everything down to energy, there must be some really bad energy to motivate evil acts. A force of evil, if you will, which becomes personified; especially back in ancient times when almost everything got personified eventually.

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#830    Reann

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:27 AM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...

No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...





As companions of God we are free to live and choose to grow almost as we desire, but not without being subjected to Universal , Spiritual Law.
We become more able to fulfill our ultimate purpose for existing:to be a companion to the Universal creator.

I'm not certain if you are understanding  aspects of nature,  and of  the laws that govern it .

The law/nature is perfect.


#831    Reann

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostJor-el, on 12 July 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

What doesn't make sense is that Jesus Christ specifically told us the believers whom we call Christians to preach the Gospel to the entire world... why did he do that if there is truth in every religion, which is what you were stating?

"I've personally come to the realization that the creator is also revealed in other cultures of religions that may seem foreign to others, but that it too is the creator they acknowledge ...I think so because , I  think that all religions lead to the same purpose, like branches of the same tree, you know? all waters meet..."

I seriously disagree with the above statement of yours. The religions of the world may have and probably do have a common root, in other words they all are derived from an original belief system common to humanity at some time in the past.

They all worshipped the one true God but as they drifted away from his worship and chose to worship other things, their beliefs changed and were corrupted over time. God with the bible has brought us the chance to worship and know him yet again. That is why I stated that other religions may have truth, but do not have "TheTruth", only the bible has that.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life,  no one comes to the Father but through Him.

That is what he has told us Christians to preach... it would not be necessary if the other religions were an option.

As for universalism, that has two meanings depending on the context, (1) that all religions are acceptable in the eyes of God, which is false if the words I quoted are anything to go by and (2) That God is in all religions... also false since the religions of the world do not glorify God but rather glorify the "sons of God", whom God gave humanity to in their apostasy, keeping only Israel for himself.

I would like you to explain to me please how you conceive God in your mind, Is he part of the universe? or external to the universe? is God in creation or a part of creation or is he the author of creation but apart from it?
I think I understand what you are getting at in regards to your perception and understanding of Jesus.Though, in my  perception of   his  teachings may be of  a  different light..
Jesus mentioned nothing is done in secret, remember?  In my understanding of why he said so , is because , everything is done within the Universal consciousness. and the whole is effected by it,(as well as all others in the whole.)
In the higher realms of consciousness there is no space.Things and people are not separated but are of a Whole.


#832    Mikko-kun

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:14 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 20 July 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:



Dont watch south park do you? The easter bunny episode...

But in all seriousness, you know there can be people who go to greater lengths to prove points. What would prevent them from doing things listed in that video, like killing in the name of the easter bunny? Pick up a gun, keep telling yourself it's because of the easter bunny, and there you go. It's not that hard, just that it's something from which you hardly gain anything.

I know that that video's point might've been that it's because religion is important people that those things happen. But that's a fallacy. It's not the religion doing it, but people who practise it. And vain cruelty isn't part of a religion that's supposed to be all about love, it's that simple. If you break against that, no matter what a book or a religious leader says, you go against your religion. If you say you dont but still do it, then you dont only go against your religion, but are also dishonest about it. Two dishonesties dont make one honesty.

It would be good to ask, whether it's the army, the society and it's laws, or religions, or just you and some hobby you do... it'd be good to ask if you follow the people who are seen as masters, how unquestioningly you follow them, how literally you interpret their rules, and how much of your own sense you use in all that, and to what extent. Bad things can be done in the name of anything you choose to follow instead of listening your inner sense of what's right. That sense might not be always right, or we might not always see so clearly what it says, but it's the best we got.

I've been born again 31,8,2014 approximately 21:35 local time. A moment free of clutter in the mind, emancipating myself like an escapist, allowing myself to breathe life in a stronger, less physical level... though it does resonate to physical world. It's the oomph.

#833    Truthseeker007

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

How the Term "Satan" Originated

This Awareness indicates that in reality, there is no such being as Satan. It is simply a creation of man, and the energies associated with this as being created as the movement grows and the creation of such energies as a personification of such energies. Originally, Satan was nothing other than the planet Saturn in an astrological quality. It was the Egyptian Set, the Egyptian God known as Set, which represented Satan or Saturn; the Persians, instead of calling it Saturn or set, called the planet Satan, and personified the planet as though it were a person. This Awareness indicates that the Persians were the first to invent the personification of that which was called Satan. Later, the time being in approximately the mid part of the Christian Age, Western mystics, in studying various religions, latched on to the Persian teachings of Satan and brought into the Christian religion. Prior to that there was no Satan.



This Awareness indicates that it then led to modification in the biblical texts, and let to various types of change in the scriptures and attitudes and terminologies used in the teachings, so that instead of Saturn or Set, the terms for Satan became as though the entity were a person; that in this manner, a force was personified. This Awareness indicates that the personification of this force in modern times is such that entities are treating this personification, this creation, as though it were a real being, and are worshipping this force.


http://www.bibliotec...cconnection.htm



Edited by Truthseeker007, 22 July 2013 - 01:10 PM.

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#834    Truthseeker007

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

How the Devil Began

This Awareness indicates that the tendency of religions of that time was to imply that theirs was the best and others were in error. (This Awareness indicates this may be somewhat strange to modern religion followers to think that such concepts ever existed) This Awareness indicates however, that at that time, the various religions would tend to make the deities of other religions appear to be as false gods, while their religious deities were true gods. That in this sense, the term "deva" of the Hindu philosophy became gradually distorted and translated to "devil." This Awareness indicates however, that the concept of a devil in a personified sense such as is commonly understood in fundamentalist teachings today, did not really begin taking root in its present sense until centuries later.

This Awareness indicates that during the Medieval times when various artists would draw these principles into personified beings, they draw heavily from the Greek concept of Pan, the Greek Pan being part goat and part human; that this entity often depicted as having horns and a tail. This Awareness indicates that this, in turn, led people to believe that the devil was an entity with horns and a tail.


This Awareness indicates that the term "scapegoat" and the concept of the devil being symbolized by a goat, this all closely related to the confusion of Pan and that which is the concept of the devil , along with the belief that some entity runs around calling himself "devil' and others, recognizing him in passing, refer to him as "the devil" - "There goes the devil."



This Awareness indicates that this as but a creation of the human mind. That there are, in fact, beings who have a negative nature who are identified with the darkness of those qualities which entities associates with as evil. This Awareness indicates there are entities even who move into such identification with these forces as to personify the Force of Darkness. This Awareness indicates that in various teachings of pagans and witchcraft there may also be entities who, identifying so much with the dark forces using the symbol of the goat-man as an image of the devil, may even get into the practice of devil worship.



http://www.bibliotec.../jesusmyth4.htm



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#835    Etu Malku

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 22 July 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Dont watch south park do you? The easter bunny episode...

But in all seriousness, you know there can be people who go to greater lengths to prove points. What would prevent them from doing things listed in that video, like killing in the name of the easter bunny? Pick up a gun, keep telling yourself it's because of the easter bunny, and there you go. It's not that hard, just that it's something from which you hardly gain anything.

I know that that video's point might've been that it's because religion is important people that those things happen. But that's a fallacy. It's not the religion doing it, but people who practise it. And vain cruelty isn't part of a religion that's supposed to be all about love, it's that simple. If you break against that, no matter what a book or a religious leader says, you go against your religion. If you say you dont but still do it, then you dont only go against your religion, but are also dishonest about it. Two dishonesties dont make one honesty.

It would be good to ask, whether it's the army, the society and it's laws, or religions, or just you and some hobby you do... it'd be good to ask if you follow the people who are seen as masters, how unquestioningly you follow them, how literally you interpret their rules, and how much of your own sense you use in all that, and to what extent. Bad things can be done in the name of anything you choose to follow instead of listening your inner sense of what's right. That sense might not be always right, or we might not always see so clearly what it says, but it's the best we got.
i believe the video goes a bit deeper than that, it implies how some religions have it written in their scriptures to extinguish all other religions and its adherents. As I stated in http://www.unexplain...25#entry4850612 . . . the real Satan is the "Others", those who you are not and those who threaten your spiritual beliefs.

View PostTruthseeker007, on 22 July 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

How the Term "Satan" Originated

This Awareness indicates that in reality, there is no such being as Satan. It is simply a creation of man, and the energies associated with this as being created as the movement grows and the creation of such energies as a personification of such energies. Originally, Satan was nothing other than the planet Saturn in an astrological quality. It was the Egyptian Set, the Egyptian God known as Set, which represented Satan or Saturn; the Persians, instead of calling it Saturn or set, called the planet Satan, and personified the planet as though it were a person. This Awareness indicates that the Persians were the first to invent the personification of that which was called Satan. Later, the time being in approximately the mid part of the Christian Age, Western mystics, in studying various religions, latched on to the Persian teachings of Satan and brought into the Christian religion. Prior to that there was no Satan.



This Awareness indicates that it then led to modification in the biblical texts, and let to various types of change in the scriptures and attitudes and terminologies used in the teachings, so that instead of Saturn or Set, the terms for Satan became as though the entity were a person; that in this manner, a force was personified. This Awareness indicates that the personification of this force in modern times is such that entities are treating this personification, this creation, as though it were a real being, and are worshipping this force.


http://www.bibliotec...cconnection.htm

The "Light Network" might want to check their history, Set is not aligned with Saturn.

The following inscription from the royal tombs in the Valley of the Kings:

Quote

The constellation of the Thigh appears at the late rising. When this constellation is in the middle of the heavens, having come to the south where [the constellation Orion] lies, the other stars are proceeding to the western horizon. Regarding the Thigh: It is the Thigh of Set; while it is seen in the northern heavens, there is a band [constellation] to the two in the shape of a great bronze chain. The constellation Draco, and in particular the star at its head (Gamma Draconis), represented Set.

The Persians called Satan, Iblis. They were not the first to establish the archetype of Satan as the Jews were. Satan is a personification of the Judaic word ha-satan meaning Adversary. Ha satan did not become Satan until much later when Jewish sects / tribes particularly the Essenes began referring to anyone who was not an Essene as ha satan. Still further on, the Roman Christian Church decided it was time to personify "the adversary" into Satan (complete with horns, tail, colored red, and all that jazz) and have him become the scapegoat for all evil in the Christian world.


Light People . . . pffft!

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#836    Jor-el

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostReann, on 22 July 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

As companions of God we are free to live and choose to grow almost as we desire, but not without being subjected to Universal , Spiritual Law.
We become more able to fulfill our ultimate purpose for existing:to be a companion to the Universal creator.

I'm not certain if you are understanding  aspects of nature,  and of  the laws that govern it .

The law/nature is perfect.

True.... "we are free to live and choose to grow almost as we desire, but not without being subjected to Universal , Spiritual Law."

I understand perfectly well the relevent aspects of nature and its accompanying physical laws, which we are subject to, but never created for. We were created to rule nature, not be ruled by it. That is exactly what the bible says, there is no grey area where either one of us can be right. What one can do is simply not accept or believe it, but that will be solely up to you.

Posted Image


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-C. S. Lewis


#837    Jor-el

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostReann, on 22 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I think I understand what you are getting at in regards to your perception and understanding of Jesus.Though, in my  perception of   his  teachings may be of  a  different light..
Jesus mentioned nothing is done in secret, remember?  In my understanding of why he said so , is because , everything is done within the Universal consciousness. and the whole is effected by it,(as well as all others in the whole.)
In the higher realms of consciousness there is no space.Things and people are not separated but are of a Whole.

I do not agree... simply because there is no such thing as a universal consciousness, whom we call god. God is not a universal consciousness, he is a self aware being, which created the universe we live in and can interact with it and manipulate it, but is not an actual part of it. You may disagree, but I cannot accept a pnthesitic approach to God, because to do so would violate the most fundamental aspect of being God, his eternal existence, beyond time, space and matter.... in other words beyond the universe, which did in fact hace a beginning.

For your view to work, the universe would itself have to be eternal, which we know is NOT the case.

In view of our souls all belonging to God, it is true, in that he is the author and owner of all life, and when we die, that spark returns to be with God, good or evil, that spark returns to God, becuase the spark does not contain any of the good or evil that was innacted by the person in question or the animal in question whatever it may be.

But a different fate is held for our spirits, the element of self awareness and personality that make us all who we are, and which animals do not have. These are indeed seperate entities from God and will remain so for eternity.

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#838    Jesus Loves Us

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:54 PM

View PostJor-el, on 06 July 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

You can reject the notion but the bible is clear, Gods plans work through the nation of Israel. Everything to do with the 2nd coming of Jesus is tied up with Israel and the fate of Israel and what Israel does... not the USA or the UK or any other nation or tribe.
Kabbalah is witchcraft. That's a minor issue. Why didn't he convert to Christianity? Why didn't he evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ while he was alive?

Matthew 24:36  ►
New International Version (©2011)
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


#839    Jor-el

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

View PostJesus Loves Us, on 22 July 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

Kabbalah is witchcraft. That's a minor issue. Why didn't he convert to Christianity? Why didn't he evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ while he was alive?

Matthew 24:36  ►
New International Version (©2011)
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

kabbalah is not witchcraft, it simply does not follow the rules we gentiles and westerners use to interpret a text. It is a mystical and very subjective approach to interpretation which in essence does not exactly have any rules.

It uses a number of methods that can seem like witchcraft but are not. Numerology is such a thing, but if you pay attention, the numerology of the bible is as important as the literal recieved text.

There are also a number of variations that are indeed occultic, such as Hermitic kabbalah, as well as many secret orders and societies using variations of kabalha, such as the Gnostics, Knights Templar, the Neoplatists, the Pythagoreanists, the Rosicrucianists, Tantra, the English Order of the Golden Dawn, and the French magician Eliphas Levi.

But the point is that it is a tool, it how it is used that determines the spirit behind the user.

I would ask you to consider the New Testament and the book of Revelation which also used numerlogy in its text, is it now supposed to be from Satan as well?

What about the many important references to astrological imagery in the skies which are used throughout the bible, are we also to ignore them because some person reinvented and perverted something called astrology?

Edited by Jor-el, 22 July 2013 - 09:12 PM.

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-C. S. Lewis


#840    Jesus Loves Us

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:18 PM

It's about intent. Do you practice it because you want to be a god and bypass Jesus' sacrifice? It's the same thing with meditation or any mystical practices. It wouldn't be a mystical practice if you're just gazing at the stars or fiddling with numbers.





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