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Europeans in Pre-Columbian Baffin Island?


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#16    Abramelin

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:16 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 30 December 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Or, in the mid 13-hundreds, the king of norway sent a mission out to Greenland and the "lands to the west" (cough, cough :whistle: ). It was apparently both a mission of exploration and a mission to make sure that Christianity was being enforced. :)

But that is at least 300 years too late.


#17    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

Quote

But that is at least 300 years too late.

Maybe for this one bit of evidence, but arch. finds stretch over a 500 year period and there are later dated carvings very similar. So it makes sense that what was carved is simply some locals interpretation of a priest/monk.


#18    Likely Guy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:49 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 December 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:



You think they walked around bare chested?  It's not what you would expect in a climate like that.

That was my opinion, you have evidence that the Knights Templar reached North America?


#19    Abramelin

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:18 AM

View PostLikely Guy, on 31 December 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

That was my opinion, you have evidence that the Knights Templar reached North America?

Of course I have no evidence.

I just don't know of any other knights carrying a cross over their chests.


#20    Abramelin

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:20 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 31 December 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

Maybe for this one bit of evidence, but arch. finds stretch over a 500 year period and there are later dated carvings very similar. So it makes sense that what was carved is simply some locals interpretation of a priest/monk.

If it's a monk then what is that headgear with the vertical lines?

Posted Image

http://www.agefotost...Free/IBK-773283


.

Edited by Abramelin, 31 December 2012 - 07:25 AM.


#21    Abramelin

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

Or is it Leif Ericson?

Helluland is the name given to one of the three lands discovered by Leif Eriksson around AD 1000 on the North Atlantic coast of North America.

Helluland was characterized by the Icelandic Saga of Erik the Red and the Greenland Saga as a land of flat stones (Old Norse: hella). Historians generally agree that Helluland was Baffin Island in the present-day Canadian territory of Nunavut.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helluland


Statue of Leif Ericson:

Posted Image


#22    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:33 AM

A couple of points:

1. The line across the chest, 'suggesting chain mail', suggests a medieval hood covering the head and shoulders a lot more.

2. The 'face mask' may just be characteristic of the Inuit style - the other carvings don't show much if any facial detail. Also, it may be an attempt to show heavy facial hair, which would be totally foreign to Amerinds.

So, a bearded European monk or priest, wearing a hood and somewhat ornate split robe complete with pectoral cross, out to bring the word to the benighted natives circa 1000AD - why not? Or sent to convert the Greenland Vikings, who were by no means all Christians at that point, and getting blown off course (which seems to have happened a lot in the Sagas) and ending up on Baffin Island. It's a mystery without a final solution, but hardly one with no solutions.


#23    Knul

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 December 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

You're welcome.

Of course I thought of the Vikings, but did these Vikings wear large crosses over their chests?

There are stories about a possible landing of the Knights Templar in North America, and this find might be an indication that that did indeed happen.

Posted Image

The OLB states cooperation between the Frisians and Nordmen (Vikings). So whereever the Vikings traveled, the Frisians might have joined them.

Edited by Knul, 02 January 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#24    Abramelin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostKnul, on 02 January 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

The OLB states cooperation between the Frisians and Nordmen (Vikings). So whereever the Vikings traveled, the Frisians might have joined them.

Yeah, but the OLB places all this in a much earlier timeframe.

Well, you know what I think about it.... ;)


#25    Abramelin

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

What I found interesting is that Adam von Bremen said these Frisians came/departed from East Friesland. Now what was a holy place for these East Frisians (and also for Danes, Norse and Swedes and the other Frisians)? That was Helgoland, an island in the German Bight, west of Denmark.


In addition to German, the local population, who are ethnic Frisians, speak the Heligolandic dialect of the North Frisian language called Halunder. Heligoland was formerly called Heyligeland, or "holy land", possibly due to the island's long association with the god Forseti.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Heligoland

How did the Vikings (maybe) call Baffin Island: Helluland.

And 'Halunder' is the language spoken on 'Halund'.

Haligoland/Heligoland/Helgoland/Halund >>> Helluland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helluland

http://en.wikipedia....cheDialekte.png


#26    Knul

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:06 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

What I found interesting is that Adam von Bremen said these Frisians came/departed from East Friesland. Now what was a holy place for these East Frisians (and also for Danes, Norse and Swedes and the other Frisians)? That was Helgoland, an island in the German Bight, west of Denmark.


In addition to German, the local population, who are ethnic Frisians, speak the Heligolandic dialect of the North Frisian language called Halunder. Heligoland was formerly called Heyligeland, or "holy land", possibly due to the island's long association with the god Forseti.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Heligoland

How did the Vikings (maybe) call Baffin Island: Helluland.

And 'Halunder' is the language spoken on 'Halund'.

Haligoland/Heligoland/Helgoland/Halund >>> Helluland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helluland

http://en.wikipedia....cheDialekte.png

Please have a look at the bottomline: http://upload.wikime...uropeanTree.svg .


#27    Knul

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:07 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

What I found interesting is that Adam von Bremen said these Frisians came/departed from East Friesland. Now what was a holy place for these East Frisians (and also for Danes, Norse and Swedes and the other Frisians)? That was Helgoland, an island in the German Bight, west of Denmark.


In addition to German, the local population, who are ethnic Frisians, speak the Heligolandic dialect of the North Frisian language called Halunder. Heligoland was formerly called Heyligeland, or "holy land", possibly due to the island's long association with the god Forseti.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Heligoland

How did the Vikings (maybe) call Baffin Island: Helluland.

And 'Halunder' is the language spoken on 'Halund'.

Haligoland/Heligoland/Helgoland/Halund >>> Helluland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helluland

http://en.wikipedia....cheDialekte.png

Please have a look at the bottomline: http://upload.wikime...uropeanTree.svg .

Edited by Knul, 04 January 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#28    Abramelin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:45 AM

View PostKnul, on 04 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Please have a look at the bottomline: http://upload.wikime...uropeanTree.svg .

I don't get it: what should I see there?


#29    Abramelin

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:02 PM

Found a strange story that might 'prove' the Vikings even ended up in California after traveling along the North West Passage from Greenland during a warmer period in the Middle Ages:


SAN DIEGO COUNTY
Anza-Borrego Desert State Park - For sheer volume of strange phenomena, California's largest state park must also be its most mysterious as well.


Lost Viking Ship
Agua Caliente Springs (26 mi N of Ocotillo on Hwy S2) Today, the hot and cold springs in this desert canyon are maintained as a county park. Sufferers of arthritis and rheumatism park their mobile homes here for up to six months at a time, to enjoy the springs' soothing waters.

But back in the Thirties, Agua Caliente Springs were known only to a few locals, such as Myrtle and Louis Botts of nearby Julian. Myrtle, an amateur botanist. was especially fond of the springs. since brilliant wildflowers grew in the canyons above them.

In early 1933, she and her husband, on a wildflower hunt here, were camped at the mouth of a canyon, when a dirty old prospector wandered by and told them an amazing story. Up in the canyon a few days earlier, he had seen an old ship sticking out of a sheer mountain wall. When the desert rat then told the Bottses that he had also found Pegleg Smith's legendary lost mine, they thanked him for the information, saw him off, and had a good laugh.

But they weren't laughing the next day. That morning the Bottses hiked into the canyon, and when they passed beyond a steep grade, they saw the forward half of a large, ancient ship poking out of a mountainside, just as the prospector had told them. The vessel had a curved prow, circular marks along its sides where shields had once been, and four deep furrows in the bow. The craft was high above the Bottses, and the mountain wall that held it was a sheer, nearly impassible sheet of shale and clay. The couple noted its exact location, memorized the nearby landmarks in the canyon and excitedly headed back to camp.

Seconds after they returned to their camp, the devastating 1933 earthquake hit with full force. Their campsite was destroyed, so the two returned to their home in Julian.

Myrtle Botts was tantalized by the mysterious wreck, and immediately began to read up on ancient ships at the library where she worked. After several days of study, she decided that the craft most closely resembled one of the old Viking sea raiders, though she couldn't bring herself to believe that Norsemen sailed the ship over 40 miles of mountains to Agua Caliente. She and her husband resolved to visit Agua Caliente Springs the following weekend, and take pictures of the craft to prove it existed.

But when they returned to the canyon, they were stopped short by a slide that blocked the trail where they had hiked a week earlier. There was no trace of the ship or the canyon wall that held it. The Bottses decided that the earthquake had shaken tons of earth loose from the mountain, burying the craft beneath it.

The idea of a Viking ship stranded in the Borrego Desert may not be quite as preposterous as it sounds. During the great Norse expeditionary period from 900-1100 AD, high temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere melted away much of the Arctic ice north of Canada. At least one Viking ship may have sailed through the Northwest Passage there and down through the Bering Strait, though the prevailing east winds in the Arctic guaranteed that the adventurers would never make it back to Scandinavia.

A curious Indian legend implies that Vikings may have strayed as far south as Mexico. The Seri Indians of the Gulf of California's Tiburon Island still tell of the "Come-From-Afar-Men" who landed on the island in a "long boat with a head like a snake." They say the strange men had yellow hair and beards, and a woman with red hair was among them. Their chief stayed on the island with the redheaded woman while his men hunted whales in the Gulf. When they had finished hunting, the strangers went back on their ship and sailed away.

One version of the legend says their ship sank in the Gulf, and the survivors swam ashore and were taken in by the Mayo Indians. Even today, the Mayos sometimes produce children with blond hair and blue eyes, and say that they are descendants of the strangers that married into the tribe in ancient times. .

Others say that the fair-haired foreigners sailed farther up the Gulf and were never seen again. If, as some revisionist geographers insist, the Imperial Valley was once an extension of the Gulf of California, then the ship could have run aground on what are now the Tierra Blanca Mountains. So it may lie today buried under tons of earthquake-loosened rock and soil in the canyon above Agua Caliente Springs. . (For another account of a legendary desert ship, see IMPERIAL COUNTY: Salton Sea.)


http://www.klaxo.net...MystCal1.htm#p4
http://the-wanderlin...m/longship.html
http://www.greatgodp..._ship_of_th.htm

http://forest.facts....om/xvinland.htm

Source: Childress.....sigh

http://books.google....vikings&f=false



Did Vikings visit the Gulf which has been suggested as a possible source of the missing ship. The Seri Indians of Tiburon have legends and songs of these early white giants, who came in a long boat driven by sweeps, who were whalers living in big houses by the sea, in their own land. Whose weapons were the bow and arrow and spear. With them, said the Seris, was a red-haired woman, wife fo the captain, who wore her hair in big braids down her back and was even fairer than the men, who dressed in heavy clothes and had a big cloak or mantle. Freydis, daughter of Eric the Red, was in command of a Viking ship to the east coast of North America, in 1014, so Viking women did sail.

The blonde strangers stayed on Tiburon Island a year and four months, and then they sailed away with four families of Seri, promising to bring them back when they returned. But they never did return to Tiburon. Perhaps their long boat was grounded and abandoned somewhere in the Salton Sink and they walked out, either to Arizona where there was an early legend of blonde and redheaded Indians, or even as far as the Mayo River.


http://www.insidethe...ert-salton-seal

http://rav4adventure...-in-desert.html

http://www.weirdca.c...php?location=52

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4209

W. J. McGee. - The Seri Indians (1898)
http://www.ebooksrea...dians-078.shtml



Posted Image

The long-dreamed of Northwest Passage would permit ships to travel from the Atlantic to the Pacific via the Davis Strait between Greenland and Baffin Island, through islands of northern Canada, along the coast of Alaska to the coast of Siberia.

http://www.sitenet.c...es/sp080320.htm


#30    Abramelin

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

The Last Viking
PART III: THREE STEPS BACK  


THE MYSTERIOUS END OF THE FIRST MILLENNIUM.
It would seem that the end of the First Millennium was not only noteworthy for the establishment of the first Viking Settlements on the west coast of Greenland, it was also around this time that the Arctic Dorset peoples mysteriously disappeared and the Thule peoples simultaneously emerged to take their place. Who were the replacements? According to the prevailing view, they were whale-hunting Inuit who originated in Alaska, but moved right through the Arctic Archipelago, on into Hudson Bay, then further east and north to Baffin Island, Devon Island, the eastern coast of Ellsmere Island and ultimately reached Thule on the northwest coast of Greenland.

(...)

At times the Vikings might well have occupied or even co-existed on some of the choicer Dorset sites - a reasonable assumption given that most sites would have been favourably located with some form of ready-made (if rudimentary) habitation. Perhaps some sites were abandoned completely, while others eventually reverted back to their original Inuit users, further masking signs of a Viking presence. Then again, there is the obvious corollary: if Inuit hunters from Alaska could reach Greenland in skin covered boats, what was there to stop the Vikings from proceeding at least as far in the opposite direction, i.e., journeying from Greenland to Alaska and beyond? Lack of arctic knowhow? Hardly, given that the Vikings had already managed to survive on the northwest coast of Greenland. Then there is the supposition that whale hunting in the Eastern Arctic was exclusively an Inuit practice. Here again, in light of their own needs and requirements the Vikings can hardly be excluded. Also, given the dearth of construction materials in the Arctic, the same argument likely applies - in some instances at least - to the "Thule" sites that featured whalebone in their construction. Here - isolated occurrences and/or cooperative ventures alike - small Viking ships would surely be useful, as would be the available manpower and Viking maritime expertise itself.So what is more likely to have taken place in the Eastern Arctic around the turn of the First Millennium? That the Alaskan Inuit in their skin-covered boats traveled thousands of miles across the Arctic Archipelago as far as Thule on the northwest coast of Greenland, or that the Vikings - already settled lower down the Greenland coast, with their superb ships, superior tools and their penchant for exploration, simply moved up the coast to Thule as a natural progression? And after that, sailed a short distance cross the top of Baffin Bay to Ellsmere Island (a scant 25 miles) and progressively extended their westward exploration to include other "Thule" sites along the way.

http://www.spirasola.../sbb4g1bv2.html





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