187 replies to this topic

[regeneratia]

www.medicalnewstoday.com said:

Fluoridegate: Fluoride Spots On Teeth The Tip Of The Iceberg
13 Jan 2011  
http://www.medicalne...cles/213599.php

Decades of assurances that consuming fluoride in drinking water is a safe and an effective way to prevent cavities are being called into question as a jarring Fluoridegate controversy erupts across the nation.

A series of disclosures are surfacing about the actions of water fluoridation promoters that point to a likely tsunami of Fluoridegate investigations, hearings, and explosive courtroom entanglements.

Read more...

FLUORIDE CAUSES ADHD IN CHILDREN.
The science is there to back it up. There is also spun and twisted science that tears down the good, solid science that backs it up.

It has been about five years since my family drank water readily from the tap.
One day, long ago, I looked at my child's teeth. They were gray. I told his pediatrician, who played it off. I told his dentist, who played it off.

I have known for a long time, longer than I have been a mother, that fluorosis puts holes in the enamel of children's teeth, totally reversing the good that is intended and creating a prime environment for cavities.


So I TOOK action myself. I am tired of relying on "authority figures" who lie to us, who neglect us, like the pediatrician and dentist, the dental industry and the CDC.

We bought a water cooler and drink reverse osmosis water (now too having instant hot water for my teas). We buy toothpaste that does not have fluoride.

My child's teeth are pure white and without cavities so far.

Empower yourself!!

Have you acted on this information for your family?

Edited by regeneratia, 13 January 2011 - 07:04 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

We collect rainwater to avoid it.
The distressing fact is that even bathing in fluoridated water exposes you to high levels through skin absorbtion.

Br Cornelius

[regeneratia]

Br Cornelius, on 13 January 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

We collect rainwater to avoid it.
The distressing fact is that even bathing in fluoridated water exposes you to high levels through skin absorbtion.

Br Cornelius

I agree with that too.
Fluoride is a toxin, is on the list of carcinogens.

The daily application of fluoridated water vapors on the epithelial cells in your lungs from fluoridated showers has got to contribute to lung disease. All the while, all the diseases are blamed on smoking, with study after study NOT accounting for the influence of fluoridated vapors bathing the lungs on a daily basis.

Then there is the question of what it does to the gastrointentional tract when fluoridated water is drank daily, from the stomach to the colon, and most certainly at the point of the liver and kidneys.

If fluoride hardens tooth enamel, the hardest substance in the body, what exactly is the effect of fluoride on soft, permeable tissues involved in consuming it, digesting it, biologically filtering it and bathing in it?

The questing mind would seek to find those answers.

Edited by regeneratia, 14 January 2011 - 06:55 PM.

[regeneratia]

Yeppers, there will be lots of interest in this issue:
http://www.nytimes.c...agewanted=print


January 13, 2011
EPA Moves on Fluoride Draw Warning From Sen. Inhofe
By ELANA SCHOR of Greenwire
U.S. EPA's bid to phase out a fluoride-based pesticide is sparking the first stirrings of a political battle, as Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.) warned the agency yesterday that its move "could create unintended consequences for public health, food safety, and the economy."

EPA this week proposed a gradual ban on food with traces of sulfuryl fluoride -- a fumigant used on cocoa, grains, nuts and other edibles -- to complement the rollout of new curbs on fluoride in drinking water aimed at protecting children's health.

But in a letter to the agency, Inhofe appears skeptical of the science behind its moves -- particularly the proposed limit on the pesticide, which EPA says represents "a tiny fraction" of children's aggregate exposure to fluoride.
=====================

What we are seeing in an effort by Inhofe to reduce nation-wide litagation.

[WoIverine]

Um...I don't know, howabout not putting it in ANYTHING AT ALL?! Really glad I hate tap water and have refused to drink it all my life. Maybe that's my body trying to tell me something...It causes adhd in kids, and we have medication to control adhd, nice.

Edited by SpiderCyde, 14 January 2011 - 08:21 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

SpiderCyde, on 14 January 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Um...I don't know, howabout not putting it in ANYTHING AT ALL?! Really glad I hate tap water and have refused to drink it all my life. Maybe that's my body trying to tell me something...It causes adhd in kids, and we have medication to control adhd, nice.

What is really interesting is that right at the start of fluoridation, the large alumina smelting concerns were been faced with huge class action law suits concerning their pollution by fluoride gases of surrounding farm lands, with the resulting death of many cattle. They had to start scrubbing their stacks, but were left with a toxic residue which they had then to pay large sums to dispose of. There are documented letters from the company heads of those Alumina concerns to the health authorities suggesting that it would be a great idea to start using their toxic waste as a water additive to improve the teeth of our children. Simple corrupt business practice seems the most likely cause of this whole fluoride travesty.

I once attempted to find verification of the claim that the Nazi's used fluoride in the ghetto's to pacify the resident, and that this was the underlying reason why it had been adopted as a form of population control. There is no evidence that this actually took place and I find it highly unlikely that the Nazi's would not have rigorously documented this practice and that this body of work would not be traceable (despite many trying to trace it). On the basis of this I came to the conclusion that it was not part of some grand conspiracy to control the masses, which is common currency in the conspiracy world. I actually like to see some compelling evidence before I jump to such a conclusion these days.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 14 January 2011 - 09:07 PM.

[WoIverine]

Br Cornelius, on 14 January 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

What is really interesting is that right at the start of fluoridation, the large alumina smelting concerns were been faced with huge class action law suits concerning their pollution by fluoride gases of surrounding farm lands, with the resulting death of many cattle. They had to start scrubbing their stacks, but were left with a toxic residue which they had then to pay large sums to dispose of. There are documented letters from the company heads of those Alumina concerns to the health authorities suggesting that it would be a great idea to start using their toxic waste as a water additive to improve the teeth of our children. Simple corrupt business practice seems the most likely cause of this whole fluoride travesty.

I once attempted to find verification of the claim that the Nazi's used fluoride in the ghetto's to pacify the resident, and that this was the underlying reason why it had been adopted as a form of population control. There is no evidence that this actually took place and I find it highly unlikely that the Nazi's would not have rigorously documented this practice and that this body of work would not be traceable (despite many trying to trace it). On the basis of this I came to the conclusion that it was not part of some grand conspiracy to control the masses, which is common currency in the conspiracy world. I actually like to see some compelling evidence before I jump to such a conclusion these days.

Br Cornelius

This is the first I've actually heard of this, toxic metals are more my field of interest, I could tell you things that would make your hair stand on end in terms of mercury and aluminum (I'm thinking those may also be a form of population control). I will definitely have to do some reading on this flouridation thing. I'm so signing up for Chelation Therapy now.

Edited by SpiderCyde, 14 January 2011 - 09:17 PM.

[regeneratia]

Br Cornelius, on 14 January 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

What is really interesting is that right at the start of fluoridation, the large alumina smelting concerns were been faced with huge class action law suits concerning their pollution by fluoride gases of surrounding farm lands, with the resulting death of many cattle. They had to start scrubbing their stacks, but were left with a toxic residue which they had then to pay large sums to dispose of. There are documented letters from the company heads of those Alumina concerns to the health authorities suggesting that it would be a great idea to start using their toxic waste as a water additive to improve the teeth of our children. Simple corrupt business practice seems the most likely cause of this whole fluoride travesty.

I once attempted to find verification of the claim that the Nazi's used fluoride in the ghetto's to pacify the resident, and that this was the underlying reason why it had been adopted as a form of population control. There is no evidence that this actually took place and I find it highly unlikely that the Nazi's would not have rigorously documented this practice and that this body of work would not be traceable (despite many trying to trace it). On the basis of this I came to the conclusion that it was not part of some grand conspiracy to control the masses, which is common currency in the conspiracy world. I actually like to see some compelling evidence before I jump to such a conclusion these days.

Br Cornelius

There is a book that has that verification in it, and how to find to find that verification. THER FLUORIDE DECEPTION.

[regeneratia]

SpiderCyde, on 14 January 2011 - 09:14 PM, said:

This is the first I've actually heard of this, toxic metals are more my field of interest, I could tell you things that would make your hair stand on end in terms of mercury and aluminum (I'm thinking those may also be a form of population control). I will definitely have to do some reading on this flouridation thing. I'm so signing up for Chelation Therapy now.

I am just juicing it, hoping that does the trick.
But you know,  I DO NOT want to get old. I do not!

It is not a pretty picture for some.

What bothers me the most is how many lies from authorities and governments and corporations we are asked to swallow in period of a lifetime.

[Copasetic]

regeneratia, on 14 January 2011 - 06:53 PM, said:

I agree with that too.
Fluoride is a toxin, is on the list of carcinogens.

The daily application of fluoridated water vapors on the epithelial cells in your lungs from fluoridated showers has got to contribute to lung disease. All the while, all the diseases are blamed on smoking, with study after study NOT accounting for the influence of fluoridated vapors bathing the lungs on a daily basis.

Then there is the question of what it does to the gastrointentional tract when fluoridated water is drank daily, from the stomach to the colon, and most certainly at the point of the liver and kidneys.

If fluoride hardens tooth enamel, the hardest substance in the body, what exactly is the effect of fluoride on soft, permeable tissues involved in consuming it, digesting it, biologically filtering it and bathing in it?

The questing mind would seek to find those answers.

That is a pretty broad brush Regeneratia.

We need to remember back to our chemistry classes. Just like sodium is an explosive white powder that dangerously reacts with oxygen and chlorine is a poisonous gas, when combined they make an inert salt: Sodium chloride (table salt)--"Fluorides" are no different.

Fluoride is the anion of fluorine, but as being used here "Fluoride" describes a class of molecules, not one thing, which has fluorine. Remember, just like the table salt, that when chemically bonded to another element or molecule this changes the properties of that element.

When your teeth form, enamel only gets "one chance". It is deposited by a type of cells called ameloblasts, which once they deposit the enamel are gone forever. It is important then for both children and pregnant mothers to be mindful of this (indeed lots of research is shows that inadequacies in diet during pregnancy can lead to major tooth problems later in life for the child) during developmental periods where tooth enamel is deposited. Fluoride is needed in hydroxyapatite crystallization and aids the body in remineralization of damaged enamel (not that you're making new enamel, only remineralizing that which is swept away--Which is why cavities don't "heal").  


Just as we were discussing on the other topic (about Vitamin C) too much of anything, including your vitamins (and fluoride too) is a bad thing. And as I pointed out above, it also depends on how this element is bound up in a molecule which makes it dangerous or not. Similar to those against "mercury" in vaccines--Which never contained mercury, rather thimerosal which is not mercury, rather a molecule which happens to contain elemental mercury (not free, covalently bound). And how the body metabolizes a molecule is in large part, the ultimate say in its toxicity.

It would be nice if people who quickly get scared or upset about all these "chemicals" in our stuff realized this and thought back to those boring high school chemistry classes we all took and loved to hate   If we banned everything with a dangerous element in it, then there wouldn't be anything left (including ourselves, we contain all sorts of nasty chemical compounds--Like peroxide radicals, yikes!)

Its probably also good to realize, for ones who may "argue" this or just be wondering, that our body has very few biochemical pathways that can liberate "free" elements from complex molecules.

For another example, manganese is a transition metal that in high doses (not really that high) or in certain forms can cause a disease very similar to Parkinson's. Yet, manganese is something we cannot live without. Really, you'll die with it. It is essential to human life as it vital in certain enzymatic reactions that don't work without it.

There are 7 macrominerals essential for human life; Calcium, Chloride, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Iron

Along with 12 trace elements required for human life (there is probably actually more than this); Boron, Cobalt, Chloride, Chromium, Copper, Fluoride, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Selenium, Zinc (iron graces our lists twice because of the different valancies it is found and used in)


And before anyone claims it, no I am not a stooge/mouthpiece/plant for "big government, corporations, pharma, <insert evil industry of choice here>", I'm merely pointing out that when we let our imagination run wild and step away from sound scientific evidence in favor of panic, well look at that whole Wakefield topic.

Edited by Copasetic, 15 January 2011 - 01:12 AM.

[regeneratia]

Copasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 01:08 AM, said:

That is a pretty broad brush Regeneratia.

We need to remember back to our chemistry classes. Just like sodium is an explosive white powder that dangerously reacts with oxygen and chlorine is a poisonous gas, when combined they make an inert salt: Sodium chloride (table salt)--"Fluorides" are no different.

Fluoride is the anion of fluorine, but as being used here "Fluoride" describes a class of molecules, not one thing, which has fluorine. Remember, just like the table salt, that when chemically bonded to another element or molecule this changes the properties of that element.

When your teeth form, enamel only gets "one chance". It is deposited by a type of cells called ameloblasts, which once they deposit the enamel are gone forever. It is important then for both children and pregnant mothers to be mindful of this (indeed lots of research is shows that inadequacies in diet during pregnancy can lead to major tooth problems later in life for the child) during developmental periods where tooth enamel is deposited. Fluoride is needed in hydroxyapatite crystallization and aids the body in remineralization of damaged enamel (not that you're making new enamel, only remineralizing that which is swept away--Which is why cavities don't "heal").  


Just as we were discussing on the other topic (about Vitamin C) too much of anything, including your vitamins (and fluoride too) is a bad thing. And as I pointed out above, it also depends on how this element is bound up in a molecule which makes it dangerous or not. Similar to those against "mercury" in vaccines--Which never contained mercury, rather thimerosal which is not mercury, rather a molecule which happens to contain elemental mercury (not free, covalently bound). And how the body metabolizes a molecule is in large part, the ultimate say in its toxicity.

It would be nice if people who quickly get scared or upset about all these "chemicals" in our stuff realized this and thought back to those boring high school chemistry classes we all took and loved to hate   If we banned everything with a dangerous element in it, then there wouldn't be anything left (including ourselves, we contain all sorts of nasty chemical compounds--Like peroxide radicals, yikes!)

Its probably also good to realize, for ones who may "argue" this or just be wondering, that our body has very few biochemical pathways that can liberate "free" elements from complex molecules.

For another example, manganese is a transition metal that in high doses (not really that high) or in certain forms can cause a disease very similar to Parkinson's. Yet, manganese is something we cannot live without. Really, you'll die with it. It is essential to human life as it vital in certain enzymatic reactions that don't work without it.

There are 7 macrominerals essential for human life; Calcium, Chloride, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Iron

Along with 12 trace elements required for human life (there is probably actually more than this); Boron, Cobalt, Chloride, Chromium, Copper, Fluoride, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Selenium, Zinc (iron graces our lists twice because of the different valancies it is found and used in)


And before anyone claims it, no I am not a stooge/mouthpiece/plant for "big government, corporations, pharma, <insert evil industry of choice here>", I'm merely pointing out that when we let our imagination run wild and step away from sound scientific evidence in favor of panic, well look at that whole Wakefield topic.

Wow, whee, you rock. Nice little refresher on what I am not really sure I learned in Chemistry. My chemistry class was dumbed-down for nurses. Just wondering if I really learned anything at all with it, even tho the grades were good. But I did marry a very smart chemist. Will ask him what he thinks, while he does indeed avoid drinking the tap water like I do, and makes great effort to keep it from our son's oral consumption activities.

Just want to know what you think is broadly brushed in my post.

You know as well as I do how absorbent, fragile, and how close to the blood stream epithelial cells are. I simply do not think all the research on smoking should not eliminate the influence of daily washes with fluoridated water vapors. That particular influence would indeed have to be eliminated before any study on smoking's effect in the lungs would be exact. Taking it some further, wonder what fluoride-laden water vapors would do to a lung challenged by smoking. Hmmm!

Edited by regeneratia, 15 January 2011 - 01:29 AM.

[regeneratia]

Copasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 01:08 AM, said:

That is a pretty broad brush Regeneratia.

We need to remember back to our chemistry classes. Just like sodium is an explosive white powder that dangerously reacts with oxygen and chlorine is a poisonous gas, when combined they make an inert salt: Sodium chloride (table salt)--"Fluorides" are no different.

Fluoride is the anion of fluorine, but as being used here "Fluoride" describes a class of molecules, not one thing, which has fluorine. Remember, just like the table salt, that when chemically bonded to another element or molecule this changes the properties of that element.

When your teeth form, enamel only gets "one chance". It is deposited by a type of cells called ameloblasts, which once they deposit the enamel are gone forever. It is important then for both children and pregnant mothers to be mindful of this (indeed lots of research is shows that inadequacies in diet during pregnancy can lead to major tooth problems later in life for the child) during developmental periods where tooth enamel is deposited. Fluoride is needed in hydroxyapatite crystallization and aids the body in remineralization of damaged enamel (not that you're making new enamel, only remineralizing that which is swept away--Which is why cavities don't "heal").  


Just as we were discussing on the other topic (about Vitamin C) too much of anything, including your vitamins (and fluoride too) is a bad thing. And as I pointed out above, it also depends on how this element is bound up in a molecule which makes it dangerous or not. Similar to those against "mercury" in vaccines--Which never contained mercury, rather thimerosal which is not mercury, rather a molecule which happens to contain elemental mercury (not free, covalently bound). And how the body metabolizes a molecule is in large part, the ultimate say in its toxicity.

It would be nice if people who quickly get scared or upset about all these "chemicals" in our stuff realized this and thought back to those boring high school chemistry classes we all took and loved to hate   If we banned everything with a dangerous element in it, then there wouldn't be anything left (including ourselves, we contain all sorts of nasty chemical compounds--Like peroxide radicals, yikes!)

Its probably also good to realize, for ones who may "argue" this or just be wondering, that our body has very few biochemical pathways that can liberate "free" elements from complex molecules.

For another example, manganese is a transition metal that in high doses (not really that high) or in certain forms can cause a disease very similar to Parkinson's. Yet, manganese is something we cannot live without. Really, you'll die with it. It is essential to human life as it vital in certain enzymatic reactions that don't work without it.

There are 7 macrominerals essential for human life; Calcium, Chloride, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Iron

Along with 12 trace elements required for human life (there is probably actually more than this); Boron, Cobalt, Chloride, Chromium, Copper, Fluoride, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Selenium, Zinc (iron graces our lists twice because of the different valancies it is found and used in)


And before anyone claims it, no I am not a stooge/mouthpiece/plant for "big government, corporations, pharma, <insert evil industry of choice here>", I'm merely pointing out that when we let our imagination run wild and step away from sound scientific evidence in favor of panic, well look at that whole Wakefield topic.

So do you support fluoridating tap water?
Do you support drinking fluoride, consuming it, digesting it, filtering it, and eliminating it from the body, merely for it's topical use on teeth, while there are other, better ways to topically apply fluoride to the teeth?

Edited by regeneratia, 15 January 2011 - 01:32 AM.

[Stellar]

Quote

We need to remember back to our chemistry classes. Just like sodium is an explosive white powder that dangerously reacts with oxygen and chlorine is a poisonous gas, when combined they make an inert salt: Sodium chloride (table salt)--"Fluorides" are no different.

Coplastic, simply because salt is safe to injest does not mean we should assume every composite molecule is safe to injest. What people here are saying is that they dont agree with chemicals being added into our water, and neither do I. I dont like "forced medication" because I don't necessairly believe all the "goods" that come from it. I think people should be able to chose for themselves whether to injest it or not... and when I say they should chose for themselves, I mean that they should be presented with clear water to which they can add fluoride or purchase fluoridated water rather than being given fluoridated water and having to go through a hassel to get clear water.

[Copasetic]

regeneratia, on 15 January 2011 - 01:31 AM, said:

So do you support fluoridating tap water?
Do you support drinking fluoride, consuming it, digesting it, filtering it, and eliminating it from the body, merely for it's topical use on teeth, while there are other, better ways to topically apply fluoride to the teeth?

Yes, public health wise it is an easy and practical fix for a whole nation. Much as its easy for doctors to tell pregnant women to take folic acid rather than test all pregnant women for mutations in genes like dihydrofolate reductase.

Are there a small percentage of people it may not be beneficial too? Yes, possibly just as there is a small percentage of women that folate vitamins have adverse affects on.

In any sufficiently large and varied population, there are always going to be data-outliers which don't benefit from certain public health choices. The trick is to find a means to identify them early before harm could be done.

The evidence for safer, more available and more cost effective ways to ensure fluoride is adequately used to prevent dental caries is essentially non-existent. At current, in terms of public health, fluoridated water is the most effective.

[Copasetic]

Stellar, on 15 January 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

Coplastic, simply because salt is safe to injest does not mean we should assume every composite molecule is safe to injest.

Nor did I suggest that, that would be a strawman Stellar, you're better than that. The salt was an example for someone who might not be familiar with chemistry. Its easy for the names of chemicals to start sounding scary to people with little experience in chemistry or biology. Ever watch Penn and Teller?



Many of these "anti-chemical" and "organic movements" play on people's fears which is built upon a lack of understanding.

Stellar, on 15 January 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

What people here are saying is that they dont agree with chemicals being added into our water, and neither do I. I dont like "forced medication" because I don't necessairly believe all the "goods" that come from it. I think people should be able to chose for themselves whether to injest it or not... and when I say they should chose for themselves, I mean that they should be presented with clear water to which they can add fluoride or purchase fluoridated water rather than being given fluoridated water and having to go through a hassel to get clear water.

As I pointed out above, it is a cost effective and safe public health option. There is lots of stuff in your water you may not want there--traces of many elements (unless you're sneaking some triple d water from the lab) are found in water.

If you are very concerned, many states the choice is left up to the county. If your county adds fluoride to the water you can see that here at the CDC's website, simply click on your state on the map and pick out where you live.

If you are really scared, I'd suggest moving to a new county.

Places that do add fluoride to water sources add around .20 mg/L. While looking at the Institute of medicine's TUL (tolerable upper limit) for fluoride it is 10 mg per day. By drinking lots of water you'd never come close to that. To get a single mg, you'd need to drink 5 L of water a day. If you are a normal American and you're drinking 5L of water a day, you should talk to your doctor (I mean, if you are moderately sedentary and drinking that much).