251 replies to this topic

[Frank Merton]

Faith is an excuse for believing things you really have no grounds for believing except that you want to.

[Mr Walker]

Frank Merton, on 14 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Faith is an excuse for believing things you really have no grounds for believing except that you want to.

There are two forms of faith For example i chose to invest faith in my wife. I do that deliberately and consciousy for logical and scientific reasons. eg it is better for our relationship.

But my wife has a complete faith in the existence of a creator god. It has nothing to do with grounds, although she could explain rationally and logically why (to her) it is obvious that such a god exists. But EVERYTHING which people chose to believe is believed for many complex reasons. Those range from the nature of our brain and thought patterns predisposing us to belief, throughto very logical and demonstrable reasons that faith is good for us and produces positive effects on humans.

  I have no religious/spiritual faith. I think it is just not in me to hold things via belief.  but if i wanted/needed to, I would/could deliberately and consciously create a faith because it would enhance my life. (As i do with my wife.) I dont need a faith in relgious or spiritual terms because i KNOW a real and physical god. Thus belief and disbelief are not only irrelevant, but impossible,  for me.

[onereaderone]

this  will  be  a reach to  understand  or  beleive ...   so  take  it  any  way  you  like ...  try  to  hear  the  undercurrent , rather  than  what  may seem  the  data  and  facts .

i  took  a  breif  visit  to  a place  called  the  void .   i  stood  in  for  god  as  the  soul  of  awareness ....  the  infinite  nature  of  awareness...eternity  ,  and  infinite  space  was  changeless ...  with  out  a single  place  ,  that  was  in any  way  diffrent  than  any  other  for  as  far as  the  mind  could  reach...   from  the  atomic  to  the   edge  of  infinity...   one  uniform   space  with  out  diffrence  of  any  kind...  one  seamless   magnetic  feild  with  out  polar  change...    no  sadness  ,  or  joy...   infinite  apathy...
no  light   or  dark ,  color   or  tone...   eternity   was  with  out   any  uniqueness   for  as  far as  the  mind  could  reach....

i  stood  at  the  edge  of  eternity  alone ,  and  the  horror  of  the  lonlyness   was  like  no  nightmare   the  mind  can  hold .
the  flames  of  hell  would  be  delight  to  this   singlular   stillness  of  changelessness ...    years  and  seconds   were the  same...   light  years   and   microns  were  no  diffrent...    and  i  was  alone  in  this  nightmare of  the  void   few  understand clearly ...   and  only  a handfull  of  monks  have  ever  known .      the  howling  winds  of  solitary   lonlyness  were  so  bitter  ,  pain  would  feel  like  a  spring  wind  to  the  isolation  of  changelessness ...

in  under  30  seconds  ,  i  fully  understood  the  mind  of  god ...  this  is  the  place  god ...  who  is   the  infinite  nature  of  awareness  ...  this  is  where  god  lives .    and  love  is  the  meaning  of  life .

what  love  is .    is  hard  to  explain  ,  but  easy  to  understand ...

your  born   at  a moment  in  time  between  the  last  moment   of  the  last  black  hole ...  that  eats  the  last  bit  of  matter ,  and  is  the  last  single  spot  in  all  of  infinite  space...   and  the  bang  of  infinite  energy  that  gets  the  tinest bit  of  location...  and  blooms   into  all  space   ....  between  the  beginning  and  the  end of  time...  you  have   a  life  time  ...

your  born   in  the  same  place ,  at  the  same  time...   in between    the  bang  and  a hole...   each  time....  everytime ...  you  are  you  because  of  when  and  where  your  born ...   your  a ratio  ...  a  relationship  between  energy  and matter...   unique  to  you  ...  and  only  you...   you  are  specific  and  unique  in all  of  eternity ...  and  you  happen  as  a precentage  of  eternity  ...  and  a percentage  of  infinty.
look  around  you ,  every  one  you  see  has  made  this  same  trip  with  you  an  infinite  number  of  times...  some  more  times  then others ...

hold  your  breath,  you  will need  it .  you  do  not  have  to  do  eternity  alone .  but  your  going  to  do  all  this  an  eternity  of  times...    as  you .

you  re-live  this- .... this  life  is  what  eternity  looks  like...   it  never  changes  ,  except   how  ever  you  change  it...  its  as  bad  or  as  good  as  you make  it...  

what  love  is...   is  looking  into  your  mothers  eyes,  seeing  her  soul ,  saying  to  your  self....   THANK  GOD  ,  there  you are  ,  i  thought  i  had  to  do  this  alone...   there  you are...  i  see  you  and  we  can  make  it..   here  we  are  ,  and  we  can  do  this  togather...   i  do  not  have  to  do  this  alone.

when  you  have  been  to  the  void  as  i  have ,   you understand  the  meaning  of  life  all  to  clearly ...

watch  the  movie  "contact"   listen  to  what  the  alein  says  to  ellie....   then  multiplie  that    an  infinite  number  of  times...


And  frankly  speaking ,  you  have  not  even  scratched  the  surface  of  the  true  nature  of  void .
what  i  have  been  reading  here is  so  good ,  i  respect  what  i  read  here  so very  very  much ,  but  honestly ,  if  you  spent   3  minutes  in  void ,  you  would  know .

when  you  know  ,  you  hug  your  enemy   and  ask  if  they  will  stop  being a jerk ,  the  stone  in  your  shoe  is  just  a  learning  experiance  that  is  a pain  in  the  foot ...  your  a  nut  case  that  no  one  understands ,  but  tolarate  for  reasons   you  never  really  understand ....

to  find  your  self  you  must  lose  yourself  in  the  service  of  others .
seeking  god  is  a  selfish  endevior ,  that  is  noble ,  and good .

there  is  no  good  or  bad...   there  is  only  point  of  veiw ,  and  stuff  that  is  good  and  bad  from  your  point  of  veiw .

god  does  not  have  a point  of  veiw...  but  you  do .

your  not  god...    any  more  than  an atom  is  infinite  space ,  or   this  moment  is  eternity ...
but  your awareness is  to  god...   what  this  moment  is  to  eternity  ...  and  an  atom  is  to  infinte  space....

[Frank Merton]

I had a great deal of love for and trust in my wife, for good reasons, and did not need faith.

Now a lot here is definitional, and I'm mainly talking about religious faith -- the faith that we are told comes from God but really is our wishful thinking being employed by churches to keep us in the fold.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 13 February 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

I clearly stated there was personal objective evidence for the existence of god, exactly the same as for the existence of any indpenedent entity or artefact. I went on to explain how one could establish and verify those evidences.

I also got a bit testy because, like so many, you confuse personal concrete evidences with transferable evidences. For me to know something, it only requires concrete evidences available to me not to anyone else. That is the way humanity and our interaction with our environment works from evolutionary force of circumstance. We learn by physical interaction with our envronment..

To see if you understood this difference (and out of interest, i asked a couple of times if you would explain what objective evidences you use to establish the objective existence of anything in your own environment. The fact that you have not replied suggests you are well aware of the difference but are trying to maintain an argument that i never engaged in Of course my personal objective evidences may not be transferrable to you but that doesnt make them less real or less concrete or applicable.

And vice versa for your own concrete evidences. You KNOW certain things based on the evidences of your interactions with the environment around you. If you do not, you are in real trouble. If you had a tuna and lettuce sandwich for lunch, there is no way you can prove this objective reality to me, unless I accept your own word for it, and for any evidences like photos which you submit as proof For example i would not even know if a person in a photo was you, but YOU would.

So ,what your saying is, you have no evidence you can share with us, only your personal beliefs, ,well that clears the matter up then ,I will look for evidence of god  elsewhere

   fullywired

[onereaderone]

fullywired, on 14 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

So ,what your saying is, you have no evidence you can share with us, only your personal beliefs, ,well that clears the matter up then ,I will look for evidence of god  elsewhere

   fullywired

i  do  have  edidance  of  god...  but  not  that  you will  likly  see  as  evidence ...

order...   the  order   is  not  simply   a  concept  of  the  rational  mind...   the  order  can  only  be  logical  if  it  is  a  construct  of   all  awareness   acting   uniformly... awareness  X  infinity  = god

[onereaderone]

Frank Merton, on 14 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

I had a great deal of love for and trust in my wife, for good reasons, and did not need faith.

Now a lot here is definitional, and I'm mainly talking about religious faith -- the faith that we are told comes from God but really is our wishful thinking being employed by churches to keep us in the fold.

religious faith  has  nothing  at all  to  do  with  god...   religon  is  with  out  any  standing  in  anything  to  do  with  god.
religon  is  counter  to  god... the  metaphor  is   the  holy  church  fathers   damning  christ  and  killing  him  after  a  court  found  him  guilty  of  no  crime ...   thats  pretty  clear...

all  religon  is  the  same...  if  they  got their  hands  on  god...   they  would  kill  him

post  script=

i  might  go  further...   if  you  go  into  any  local  church ...  i  do  not  care  what  your  standing  in  the  church  or  community  is....   and  seek  out  with  all  good  nature  to  talk  on  the nature  of  god  in  that  setting....    you  will  very  quickly  be  shunned  , aske  to  leave  ...  and  then  forcefully  be  removed .
i  make  no  distinction  of  which   religon  it  is...  or  who  you  are...  in ALL  CASES...  YOU WILL  BE ATTACKED

Edited by onereaderone, 14 February 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Frank Merton]

Ah, the Cardinal ordering Jesus burn in an auto-da-fe, saying, "We have everything under control; we don't need you to return."

[onereaderone]

i  also   understand  fullywireds  point  of  view ...  and  understand  that  he  has   little  understanding  of  the  nature  of  god ,  and  frankly  would  be  offended  in  the  very attempt  at  defining  the  concept  of  who  and  what  god  is   ...  and  tests  to  make  clear   what  is  a god  ,  and  what  is  an  alien  which  has  advanced  technology  only  a  few  million  years  advanced  of  our  own .

[onereaderone]

Frank Merton, on 14 February 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Ah, the Cardinal ordering Jesus burn in an auto-da-fe, saying, "We have everything under control; we don't need you to return."

frank ,  that  was  totaly  uncalled  for  ,  totaly  wicked...  (  and  well  done! )

[J. K.]

So...do "faith" and "belief" automatically negate any proof?  I don't know about that.  You can say, "I believe that my car will go forward when I press the gas pedal."  Why do you believe that?  It's the way the car is supposed to work, and you've probably done it before.  You have faith that the car will operate as it has previously done.  You can't "know" it's going to work until you actually try it.

[fullywired]

onereaderone, on 14 February 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

i  do  have  edidance  of  god...  but  not  that  you will  likly  see  as  evidence ...

.

Well in that case you can provide us with the evidence but I hope you are not going to repeat what Mr walker has already said


  fullywired

[Mr Walker]

Frank Merton, on 14 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

I had a great deal of love for and trust in my wife, for good reasons, and did not need faith.

Now a lot here is definitional, and I'm mainly talking about religious faith -- the faith that we are told comes from God but really is our wishful thinking being employed by churches to keep us in the fold.

Oh I have a lot of love for my wife too. I was hit by the thunderbolt when I met her and 40 years later love her as intensely and completely as a person can, BUT she is a different person to me. That means that where i cannot understand her eg a belief in god via faith, i simply choose to take her in faith. I accept her as she is on faith, without understanding all that she is, even after 40 years. This is a conscious choice. I could have made a number of different choices but i chose to invest my faith in her. Ps what is trust, if not conscious faith?

[Mr Walker]

J. K., on 14 February 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

So...do "faith" and "belief" automatically negate any proof?  I don't know about that.  You can say, "I believe that my car will go forward when I press the gas pedal."  Why do you believe that?  It's the way the car is supposed to work, and you've probably done it before.  You have faith that the car will operate as it has previously done.  You can't "know" it's going to work until you actually try it.

Logically, faith and belief can only exist where there is no evidence, or at least not any compelling evidence. I dont have faith that my wife exists, I know she does. It is impossible for me as a sane and rational being , therefore, either to believe she exists or to disbelive she exists.

Your example of the car is a good one You do NOT know it will start. On a number of embarrasing occasions my car has failed to start. But turning the key is always an act of faith. It is also predicated on past personal experience  Unless you have a really shonky car you will have realised that 999 times out of a thousand it starts when you turn the key. Thus you have statistics to rely on but they are not conclusive. Sometimes, when you turn on a room light the bulb explodes, but you continue to turn on lights based on faith and statistics..

[WhyDontYouBeliEveMe]

i think uhmm to have value and depth , hehe we all know life is just life ! but was it worth it to have lived your life the way you are living it .
we can only find that answer when we lie in our dead beds , and think back ,looking at our grandchildren then we know what the true meaning of life is . !

so be patient and wait , till all your family is around you when you breath out your last breath :D:D

Edited by WhyDontYouBeliEveMe, 14 February 2013 - 09:43 PM.