254 replies to this topic

[WHO U KIDDIN]

Hartmut, on 04 December 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

This 'eye for an eye' Arab-Palestine-Israel conflict has gone on for far too  many decades.
Why? Because each opponent  can not see an inch beyond their own tribal, nationalistic  self-interests.
Clearly this attitude and government  policy has not resulted in any positive results for ANYONE ! Historical events that brought Israel and Palestine to this more than lamentable present state can not be reversed.
However, the future is not set in concrete - but for us to create and make - by facing up to reality,  by stepping beyond a certain calcified mindset, by recognizing that we, as humans, have more in common than that which is different, by demanding from our leaders to stop violence based policies,  by adopting  INTELLIGENT  ways of dealing with each others fears and differences in politics, religion and economies.
In other words, Palestine and Israel must use Common Sense (even if that is not common at all), if they want to stop and move past their current and future cycles of violence.

However, the future is not set in concrete - but for us to create and make

Well said!

Agreed ...This endless cycle of bloodshed need not be if the parties concerned would use some common sense. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will succeed in driving each others 'tribes' from Palestine and into the sea. For peace to succeed the parties must both truly compromise on their positions and accept each others right to exist as humans.

A two-state solution based on 1967 borders would be the sensible and equitable way to end this madness once and for all.

[and then]

WHO U KIDDIN, on 04 December 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

However, the future is not set in concrete - but for us to create and make

Well said!

Agreed ...This endless cycle of bloodshed need not be if the parties concerned would use some common sense. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will succeed in driving each others 'tribes' from Palestine and into the sea. For peace to succeed the parties must both truly compromise on their positions and accept each others right to exist as humans.

A two-state solution based on 1967 borders would be the sensible and equitable way to end this madness once and for all.

If one of the States was accepted to be a homeland for the Jews then I agree.  But to give Palestinians Gaza, the WB and East Jerusalem AND give refugees the right of return into Israel would be the same as booting every Jew from the region.  Abbas was nearly lynched a few weeks ago when he mentioned obliquely, a solution that denied right of return.  It will take real leadership and possibly years of reshaping the values of Palestinians and Jews before the hard choices could be made and kept.

[pallidin]

Peace in the Middle East? Not a chance for quite some time, as "and then" correctly points-out.

Even the militant Islamic factions hate each other, not to mention hating the "Zionists" So how can there be peace???

Even with Israel completely gone(which won't happen) the Islamic factions that want Sharia Law in ALL of the Middle East(and the entire World) will continue to fight the Islamic factions(and other's) that don't.

This is a situation, in my opinion, that will get much worse before it gets to peace, regardless if Israel even existed in the first place.

EDIT: Is there ANY solution to the ME crisis? There is one and only one; all of Islam must disavow Sharia Law.
Then, there will be a chance for long-lasting peace.

Edited by pallidin, 05 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

It is a fundamental right of almost all real nations to allow their expatriate citizens the right to return and claim citizenship. Why should this right be reserved for Israel and denied to the Palestinians ?? where is the natural justice here.
These are basic issues of statehood and basic human rights. Israel has no right to unilaterally declare them out of reach for the occupied territories. If ultimately the Palestinians decide to relinquish that right as part of a peace settlement - then that is a different matter.

Is it right for a murderer to claim the home of his victim simply because he has committed a crime ?

Br Cornelius

[and then]

Br Cornelius, on 05 December 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

It is a fundamental right of almost all real nations to allow their expatriate citizens the right to return and claim citizenship. Why should this right be reserved for Israel and denied to the Palestinians ?? where is the natural justice here.
These are basic issues of statehood and basic human rights. Israel has no right to unilaterally declare them out of reach for the occupied territories. If ultimately the Palestinians decide to relinquish that right as part of a peace settlement - then that is a different matter.

Is it right for a murderer to claim the home of his victim simply because he has committed a crime ?

Br Cornelius

Incendiary language aside Brutha, I have many times explained Israel's side in this.  You (and most here) don't accept it and that is your right.  Israel was founded with the intention of being a safe refuge for the Jews.  It is a well functioning Democracy at present and because of that the right of return would doom the State to be just another Arab Islamic ruled entity that denies Jews their rights.  Since they control the land and cannot at present be forced off it they choose not to allow dhimmitude to such a State be their future.  All the protestations in the world won't change this.  But negotiations might make it better for all concerned.
ETA however that "Palestine" was never a real nation.  It's just a geographic area that became of ultimate import to the Arabs who dwelt on it once the Jews decided to create a State for themselves there.

Edited by and then, 05 December 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

Which just highlights why Israel is such an inflammatory issue for Arab states, it represents a concrete example of how double standards are applied to international relations dependent on who your friends are. You will never see the ME countries normalize relationships with the West and Israel whilst ever America and Europe treats Israel as a special case beyond international law, because it send a red flag up the flagpole that the law is not to be trusted. Israel is a fundamentally destabilizing element to all international relations because of these double standards - it makes a mockery of the law.

If American and Europe really had have intended to offer a safe refuge for the Jews then they should have offered a portion of their own territory and none of this inevitable conflict would have ensued. The fact that you cannot see that it is the prophetic element to the choice which was made which is the root of the conflict, shows that you do not have the best interests of the Jews at heart, and that you could not offer an impartial opinion if your life depended on it (which it may very well do). To allow religious biases to dictate international politics is a recipe for disaster.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 05 December 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Stellar]

Quote

It is a well functioning Democracy at present and because of that the right of return would doom the State to be just another Arab Islamic ruled entity that denies Jews their rights.

You're basing present actions on assumptions of the future?

What if the US promised to step in and make sure that a future democracy does not discriminate against the jews?

[pallidin]

Br Cornelius, on 05 December 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

It is a fundamental right of almost all real nations to allow their expatriate citizens the right to return and claim citizenship. Why should this right be reserved for Israel and denied to the Palestinians ?? where is the natural justice here.
These are basic issues of statehood and basic human rights. Israel has no right to unilaterally declare them out of reach for the occupied territories. If ultimately the Palestinians decide to relinquish that right as part of a peace settlement - then that is a different matter.

Is it right for a murderer to claim the home of his victim simply because he has committed a crime ?

Br Cornelius

I would most definitely agree that Israel is to be bound by the UN Security Council regarding it's borders, since that council regonized Israel as a world State. So, yes, Israel needs to be more cognizant of this. Of that I have no dispute.

However, for some Islamic factions to call for the complete destruction of Israel, and to COMPLETELY occupy that UN sanctioned land to Israel with Sharia Law by those militant factions is, to me, completely unacceptable.

[Br Cornelius]

pallidin, on 05 December 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

I would most definitely agree that Israel is to be bound by the UN Security Council regarding it's borders, since that council regonized Israel as a world State. So, yes, Israel needs to be more cognizant of this. Of that I have no dispute.

However, for some Islamic factions to call for the complete destruction of Israel, and to COMPLETELY occupy that UN sanctioned land to Israel with Sharia Law by those militant factions is, to me, completely unacceptable.

Israel has a de-facto expansionist policy which has been held at the highest levels of government from the foundation of the state. It never has, and never intends to, abide by the rule of international law. It is a criminal state which will continue its expansion until it occupies the historic territories it claims to have been given by JHWH.

All talk of a negotiated peace with Israel is la la land fantasy.

Br Cornelius

[and then]

Stellar, on 05 December 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

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You're basing present actions on assumptions of the future?

What if the US promised to step in and make sure that a future democracy does not discriminate against the jews?

It would embroil us in the mess even deeper.  I see no way to have a real democracy there and not have the majority vote for an MB style regime that would immediately make Jews a de facto dhimmi class.  And THAT would be a best case scenario.  People make present actions based on assumptions about the future every day.  The stock market comes to mind as an example.  

And Br Cornelius yes I do shape my opinions on my religious background as do very many others in this world.  The fact that you dismiss it as folly doesn't change the impact it has.  If the world would try a fresh new approach that caused BOTH parties here to make REAL concessions then a kind of absence of bloodshed might be arranged for a lengthy period.  But that can't happen while everyone constantly blames Israel and refuses to just deal based on the conditions on the ground i.e. reality.

Br Cornelius, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Israel has a de-facto expansionist policy which has been held at the highest levels of government from the foundation of the state. It never has, and never intends to, abide by the rule of international law. It is a criminal state which will continue its expansion until it occupies the historic territories it claims to have been given by JHWH.

All talk of a negotiated peace with Israel is la la land fantasy.

Br Cornelius

Then war is the only possible solution, is that it?

[Br Cornelius]

and then, on 05 December 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

It would embroil us in the mess even deeper.  I see no way to have a real democracy there and not have the majority vote for an MB style regime that would immediately make Jews a de facto dhimmi class.  And THAT would be a best case scenario.  People make present actions based on assumptions about the future every day.  The stock market comes to mind as an example.  

And Br Cornelius yes I do shape my opinions on my religious background as do very many others in this world.  The fact that you dismiss it as folly doesn't change the impact it has.  If the world would try a fresh new approach that caused BOTH parties here to make REAL concessions then a kind of absence of bloodshed might be arranged for a lengthy period.  But that can't happen while everyone constantly blames Israel and refuses to just deal based on the conditions on the ground i.e. reality.

Then war is the only possible solution, is that it?

Israel will force it to a series of conflicts with each one been used to implement another small series of land grabs. This will continue until it is made into a pariah state by those who currently finance its military. So it seems likely that war will continue to be inevitable.

Br Cornelius

[pallidin]

Br Cornelius, on 05 December 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

...So it seems likely that war will continue to be inevitable.

Br Cornelius

Well, as long as radical Islamist want to completely destroy Israel and occupy the entire Middle East under Sharia Law, then your statement would most certainly be true.

[WHO U KIDDIN]

Br Cornelius, on 05 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Israel has a de-facto expansionist policy which has been held at the highest levels of government from the foundation of the state. It never has, and never intends to, abide by the rule of international law. It is a criminal state which will continue its expansion until it occupies the historic territories it claims to have been given by JHWH.

All talk of a negotiated peace with Israel is la la land fantasy.

Br Cornelius

Br one can say its actually Never Never Land...
With Captain (Netanyahu) Hook and his pirates (Zionist) fighting their never-ending war against the (Palestinian) Lost Boys.

And the pirates' bulldozers relentlessly push on destroying more West Bank Olive grooves and Palestinian villages in their quest for Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah (Greater Israel).
_{Palestinians to UN: Stop 2 big Israeli settlement}

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — The Palestinians will ask the U.N. Security Council to demand a halt to construction of two large Israeli settlements near Jerusalem, a senior Palestinian official said Wednesday.
The Security Council bid is part of an escalating international showdown over Israeli settlement building plans the Palestinians see as a final blow to Mideast peace hopes....

Read more: http://www.guardian....article/1055824

[Br Cornelius]

Settlement has been a planned strategy to stall any meaningful peace settlement. Only whilst peace is avoided can the expansion into Greater Israel be continued.

Br Cornelius

[pallidin]

Br Cornelius, on 06 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Settlement has been a planned strategy to stall any meaningful peace settlement. Only whilst peace is avoided can the expansion into Greater Israel be continued.

Br Cornelius

Again, I do not dispute this with respect to the need of, say, Gaza, to expand.
After all, having more children requires, at some point, more housing and the land to support that housing, for example.
That's natural and expected. No problem with that. And the UN and Israel needs to recognize this.

My concern is the intention to completely destroy Israel, and occupy THEIR land, with no Israeli living on the planet earth.
That's my concern..

Edited by pallidin, 06 December 2012 - 06:30 PM.