112 replies to this topic

[SpiritWriter]

Beany, on 17 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

But your earlier post seems to diminish those who don't believe in god/a god, to set them apart as being less than, or to diminish a reality in which a deity it not ascendant.  Or maybe I'm not understanding your intent: A world without gods would be a world where humans were incapable of imagination or of many logical skils like analytical  thinking, reason and extrapolation. So, a world without gods would be a dull, unimaginative, and non- human worldI contend that whether there is a god or not, human beings would still have the same logical thinking skills, analyics, reason, etc., that these trait are not exclusive to religious folks nor are these skills affected by lack of religious beliefs.

I think he meant it is natural for humans to contemplate god... this is not to descriminate against those who havent come to a particular conclusion, but that those effects would apply to us as a whole if that wasnt a part of our overall biological/psychological makeup

Edited by SpiritWriter, 17 December 2012 - 04:39 AM.

[Beany]

SpiritWriter, on 17 December 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

I think he meant it is natural for humans to contemplate god... this is not to descriminate against those who havent come to a particular conclusion, but that those effects would apply to us as a whole if that wasnt a part of our overall biological/psychological makeup

thanks for the clarification. The first part of your statement is clear to me, and beautifully stated, but the last part I'm not getting. I feel like I'm being a whole lot of stupid about this, but I've read it numerous times and it hasn't become much clearer to me. Waah!

[SpiritWriter]

Beany, on 17 December 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

thanks for the clarification. The first part of your statement is clear to me, and beautifully stated, but the last part I'm not getting. I feel like I'm being a whole lot of stupid about this, but I've read it numerous times and it hasn't become much clearer to me. Waah!

Lol

I mean us as a whole body of people, that this is an aspect of the human race, not only on an individual level... and he was saying it would dull (and whatever other attribute he put to it) us if it was no longer part of our  character

Edited by SpiritWriter, 17 December 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Darkwind]

For me, it is all about balance.  To think of god as a single entity and masculine is a bit lopsided. I like the balance of the goddess to and it gives me a center.  We all have both gender traits in our philological make up.  IMO, I think the female makes for a calming energy while the male has a more active energy. Almost the difference between shopping and hunting.   Shopping is a never ending activity of searching.  The hunt has a definite beginning and end.

[Paracelse]

Paranoid Android, on 17 December 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

You make it sound so cloak-and-dagger.  Just to clarify a bit of history here, the Council of Nicaea met to codify what most Christian groups believed about their faith.  Hence when they came to "vote" on the divinity of Jesus they were asking themselves what most people believed.  Each bishop, on behalf of their group, stated what they believed.  The eventual decision was 298-2 in favour of divinity - in other words, almost all Christians before the vote already believed in the divinity of Jesus.

And the two bishops who voted against were not burned at the stake.  They were exiled but ten years later that decision was rescinded and the two dissenting bishops were allowed to return (I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware they never recanted their non-belief in the divinity of Jesus).

Just a couple of thoughts

~ PA

If you say so

Quote

Wavering Decision of Constantine:


The Trinitarian bishops prevailed. Emperor Constantine may have been a Christian at the time (although this is a matter of dispute: Constantine was baptized shortly before he died). Despite this, he had recently made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. This made heresy akin to revolt, so Constantine exiled the excommunicated Arius to Illyria (modern Albania).

Constantine's friend and Arian-sympathizer Eusebius, who eventually withdrew his objection, but still wouldn't sign the statement of faith, and a neighboring bishop, Theognis, were also exiled -- to Gaul (modern France).
Constantine reversed his opinion about the Arian heresy, and had both exiled bishops reinstated three years later (in 328). At the same time, Arius was recalled from exile.
Constantine's sister and Eusebius worked on the emperor to obtain reinstatement for Arius, and they would have succeeded, if Arius hadn't suddenly died - by poisoning, probably, or, as some prefer to believe, by divine intervention.
Arianism regained momentum and evolved (becoming popular with some of the tribes that were invading the Roman Empire, like the Visigoths) and survived in some form until the reigns of Gratian and Theodosius, at which time, St. Ambrose set to work stamping it out.

from here

[Beany]

Darkwind, on 17 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

For me, it is all about balance.  To think of god as a single entity and masculine is a bit lopsided. I like the balance of the goddess to and it gives me a center.  We all have both gender traits in our philological make up.  IMO, I think the female makes for a calming energy while the male has a more active energy. Almost the difference between shopping and hunting.   Shopping is a never ending activity of searching.  The hunt has a definite beginning and end.

I like the balance, too, that a goddess & her male consort, both equally important, bring to the game. And of course, the terms god & goddess & consort are metaphoric in nature.

[Darkwind]

All religion is metaphoric.  That is the nature of religion. it is a story to represent an ideal.

[SpiritWriter]

Darkwind, on 17 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

All religion is metaphoric.  That is the nature of religion. it is a story to represent an ideal.

Metaphoric and prophetic also represented/manifested in the real world..  Full fold

For example i wouldn't be surprised if Mary was really a virgin to represent the ancient legends etc.... Please give me a break on this statement, this is just an example of what I mean about the metaphors coming into existence...

[SpiritWriter]

She is the incubator and all life comes from her
She is both the root and the seed of life, within her is an everlasting womb
She is the deepest emotion
As told by the severity of a mothers heart
And the scorn induced by a lovers infraction
Food naturally comes from her, this is one of her amazements
He sees her worth, she is endowed with every treasure of the earth
He pursues, protects, provides for and loves her from the first sight until the very end
He is a tri-fold - a father, son and friend
Together they share the creation of life and all of it's manifold beauty
Together they train up their children in righteousness

Edited by SpiritWriter, 17 December 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Paracelse]

SpiritWriter, on 17 December 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Metaphoric and prophetic also represented/manifested in the real world..  Full fold

For example i wouldn't be surprised if Mary was really a virgin to represent the ancient legends etc.... Please give me a break on this statement, this is just an example of what I mean about the metaphors coming into existence...

Mary couldn't not have been a virgin right before birth, it's an impossibility.  Furthermore, the concept of Mary was already an archetype found in many other culture.  Athena was born of a god's brain, Horus was born of a dead father, the Celt had a Virgo Paritura (Virgin going to give birth) they worshiped all over the Europe (one of which was found and destroyed in the Chartres Cathedral).  Actually if read Ean Begg's book on the Cult of the Black Virgin, you will see that Mary wasn't really the only one virgin.

[Mr Walker]

Beany, on 17 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

But your earlier post seems to diminish those who don't believe in god/a god, to set them apart as being less than, or to diminish a reality in which a deity it not ascendant.  Or maybe I'm not understanding your intent: A world without gods would be a world where humans were incapable of imagination or of many logical skils like analytical  thinking, reason and extrapolation. So, a world without gods would be a dull, unimaginative, and non- human worldI contend that whether there is a god or not, human beings would still have the same logical thinking skills, analyics, reason, etc., that these trait are not exclusive to religious folks nor are these skills affected by lack of religious beliefs.

Belief/ non belief is a choice based on a lack of evidences. Neither diminishes a person.

But the capacity for belief is the same intellectual capacity as that for imagination, and also  the same as the capacity for logic (most beliefs grew from the application of logic  to an observation without enough data)

And so any world without religious /spiritual elements in its sapient beings would be a world without imagination or logic. That is the nature of our self aware sapience.

No they are not exclusive to religious folk but religion grows from the same innate thought processes, and you cant eliminate spirituality or religiousity without removing a part of our self aware sapience Over 90 % of humans in the 21st century still express belief in a spiritual dimension to life, or a direct belief in gods etc. Tha tis because it is a natural construction of the way we think and is observable in very young children (look up articles on the nature and construction of human beliefs )

A person can chose not to believe or chose not to exercise logic or chose not to use their imagination, but the ability remains in every human. As long as it exists in our species we will have spirituality religiousity and imagination logic etc as a species.

LAslty religion is an expression of other human tendencies; to divide like from unlike, to catalogue and codify,  and to group into groups of similarity.  People do the same with sporting and other social groups.

Separately logic, statistical evidences and observation tells me that a person with a spiritual element to their life is more than a person without one, simply beause any addition to humanity is just that, and any loss from it is a loss. I would say the same for a person who did not use their imagination or  their logic.

[Mr Walker]

Darkwind, on 17 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

All religion is metaphoric.  That is the nature of religion. it is a story to represent an ideal.

Not always. Sometimes religions grow from individual experiences with the divine. Be that  a cro magnon shaman or someone like myself.

In such cases the experience is literal/physical and the conclusions, extrapolations, and associated beliefs, a part of logic. I would argue that the redirection of christianity by saul /paul is quite likely such a case, growing from his encounter with a divine reality.

[ChloeB]

Darkwind, on 09 December 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Do you think the world would be different if rather than following a God the Abrahamic religions viewed the Divine as female rather than masculine? Mother rather than Father.  What if Jesus or Mohammad would have been a women?

Yes, I think it would be a lot different, but I don't think the gender of the head god determines the culture, but the attitudes of the culture determine how they view their god.  If you read any of the work by Marija Gimbutas who is an anthropologist who studied cultures where the primary god was a Goddess, she found they were far more egalitarian based on things such as their homes didn't seem to represent low status/high status, but more everyone on the same level.  They were not warlike and more peaceful, agricultural and their idea of God was feminine, more nurturing and maternal as a reflection of their society and how they lived.  As these cultures were invaded and war became more prevalent, there was a transition from the high god being feminine and a male consort, then the male consort equal as cultures started clashing and fight until finally, the male god became the primary and represented the focus of their culture and when the Goddess was worshipped as the main god, societies were power-with and as the male God became prevalent, societies were power-over.  What came first?  The chicken or the egg?  Well, that's up for debate, I'd say, but I say the change in cultures initiated the change in the views on the gender of their high god, but one could argue that the beliefs of gender of the high god influenced it first, but I feel that is a weaker stance.

[Beany]

SpiritWriter, on 17 December 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

She is the incubator and all life comes from her
She is both the root and the seed of life, within her is an everlasting womb
She is the deepest emotion
As told by the severity of a mothers heart
And the scorn induced by a lovers infraction
Food naturally comes from her, this is one of her amazements
He sees her worth, she is endowed with every treasure of the earth
He pursues, protects, provides for and loves her from the first sight until the very end
He is a tri-fold - a father, son and friend
Together they share the creation of life and all of it's manifold beauty
Together they train up their children in righteousness

That is just flat-out beautiful. Did you write it yourself, or are you quoting someone? Thank you for sharing this beautiful piece.

[Beany]

Mr Walker, on 17 December 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

Belief/ non belief is a choice based on a lack of evidences. Neither diminishes a person.

But the capacity for belief is the same intellectual capacity as that for imagination, and also  the same as the capacity for logic (most beliefs grew from the application of logic  to an observation without enough data)

And so any world without religious /spiritual elements in its sapient beings would be a world without imagination or logic. That is the nature of our self aware sapience.

No they are not exclusive to religious folk but religion grows from the same innate thought processes, and you cant eliminate spirituality or religiousity without removing a part of our self aware sapience Over 90 % of humans in the 21st century still express belief in a spiritual dimension to life, or a direct belief in gods etc. Tha tis because it is a natural construction of the way we think and is observable in very young children (look up articles on the nature and construction of human beliefs )

A person can chose not to believe or chose not to exercise logic or chose not to use their imagination, but the ability remains in every human. As long as it exists in our species we will have spirituality religiousity and imagination logic etc as a species.

LAslty religion is an expression of other human tendencies; to divide like from unlike, to catalogue and codify,  and to group into groups of similarity.  People do the same with sporting and other social groups.

Separately logic, statistical evidences and observation tells me that a person with a spiritual element to their life is more than a person without one, simply beause any addition to humanity is just that, and any loss from it is a loss. I would say the same for a person who did not use their imagination or  their logic.

I disagree with the last statement. My dad was an atheist, my mother very religious, yet they both had equal capacity for imagination, humor, compassion, generosity, creativity, and love of family & life. When my dad crossed over, there wasn't enough room in the chapel to fit every one in who came to pay their respects. His beliefs or lack of made not one bit of difference to the world at large, because he always showed up with a huge heart. My kids really don't have any beliefs, either, but they are much like their grandfather, a blessing to their communities.