84 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

and then, on 03 September 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

I've made many of these same points with several here and they simply don't care, Ben.  They do not believe Israel has a right to exist on any but the tiniest piece of land and when confronted with the fact that the Palestinians are sworn to never let a Jewish State exist at all, they simply ignore and deny.  It's a waste of time arguing the point.  I was raised a Christian and was never taught that God was finished with the Jews of Israel.  To the contrary I was taught that they will rule from Jerusalem with the Savior when He returns.  I know that you disagree with this but I wanted to correct the idea that all Christians are involved in "replacement" theology.

Thanks 'And Then', that's indeed comforting. Here, at my working place, in a dialogue with a Palestinian, I ended the dialogue when I asked, "Would you please be specific and tell me what you mean by Palestine?" His immediate reply was: "Well, all that you guys call 'The Land of Israel.'" "Well, my friend," I said, "You are going to fight for it. Then, it will be yours." He said, "You bet on that." See what I mean? There is no hope of compromise. And we are reelecting BB again to make sure they will stop dreaming.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

cenobite, on 05 September 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

the jews have a problem in israel...

Yes Cenobite, I agree with you. Tell something new. When the exile in Babylon ended and the Jews returned to the Land of Israel, the problem was almost the same with the Samaritans brought from Assyria to replace the Ten Tribes. IMHO, the Jews finally solved that problem because they had spent only 70 years in exile. This time we have spent almost 2000 years. As a result of such a long time, we have brought too much of the Diaspora with us. But we will succeed, I hope.

Ben

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 05 September 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Magnific piece of history in this post of yours, Ambush Bug. You must be reading from a very good book as I am familiar with the whole issue. As I can see, the Arabs did have quite a few grievances. The Jews also had many of their own, but they decided to set most of theirs by themselves because they had learned not to trust the Gentiles who were handling the issue on the end side of the bargain.  So, they took advantage of the Arab's belligerence in their method to solve their grievances and we, the Jews, surfaced up on the other side with a good measure of success.

Ben

Some of what you say is pretty accurate but I am barely brushing the surface, I mean there was even collusion between Israel or rather David Ben-Gerion and King Abdullah of Transjordan, a secret pact of non-aggression in order to divide up ALL of Palestine between themselves (the Jews and Transjordan) and that Transjordan would not invade any territory earmarked by the UN for the Jewish state.

Now, Transjordan could have played a significant role in the 1948 war as they had 4,500-5,000 soldiers well-trained by the British Army. Transjordan ALONE possessed the only significant Arab army before the conflict. Transjordan by the way did fulfill that pact but David Ben-Gurion didnt fulfill that pact as Jewish forces aggressively invaded and annexed portions of territory earmarked for the Palestinian state, the same territory that Transjordan was expected to annex. Ben-Gurion's acceptance of the UN partition plan and his pact with Transjordan were iterim devices, tactical steps towards gaining all of Palestine.

"Establish a Jewish state at once, even if it  is not in the whole land. The rest will come in the course of time. It must come." David Ben-Gurion

My sources: Collusion Across The Jordan by Avi Shlaim and The Birth Of Israel by Simha Flapan.

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 01 September 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

We did agree to work towards a Palestinian nation in 1977. They rejected again. We changed our minds. Let the conflict continue until they get strong enough and take what they want by force, which is the whole Land of Israel.

Ben

The 1907 Hague International Convention prohibits an occupying power from confiscating land, property, food and water resources - Israel pipes 80% of the West Bank water to Israel and the Jewish Settlers - and the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupier from establishing any settlements for its population in occupied territory.

In 1977, Menachem Begin was elected prime minister of Israel. Begin was a former guerilla fighter and terrorist and Eretz Israel hawk.

Begin only promised to negotiate autonomy for the Palestinians but never agreed to the autonomy for the Palestinians. Meanwhile there were no Palestinian elections, no self-governing authority, and no withdrawal of any Israeli forces. Begin opposed Palestinian self-rule. His proposals were limited autonomy with refusal of Palestinian voters in East Jerusalem (West Bank) as Begin an Eretz Israel hardliner considered all of Jerusalem to be Israeli. And refusal of Palestinians in exile to vote. Israel refused to include an ability to draft laws in this autonomy. A sovereign Palestinian state was never proposed by Israel.

"Under no conditions will a Palestinian state emerge... the autonomy agreed upon at Camp David means neither sovereignty nor self-determination... at the end of the transition period, set down in the Camp David agreements, Israel will raise its claim, and act to realize its right of sovereignty over Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip." - Prime Minister Menachem Begin

Begin used the Sinai as a bargaining chip, feeling that UN242 was now satisfied in that now the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights were now not required. Nothing in these accords precluded the creeping annexation of the West Bank and Gaza through settlement expansion.

Over the next several years, under Prime Minister Menachem Begin, the West Bank settlements doubled, the Jewish population in the West Bank tripled and increased five fold the number of Jewish settlers inserted, provocatively, into densely packed traditional Palestinian centers.

Also Begin sought to change the legal status of the territories by imposing Israeli law even though it was illegal to do so under the Hague International Convention and the Fourth Geneva Convention.

How?

In spite that in 1979 the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against expropriation of private lands for settlement purposes, Agriculture Minister Ariel Sharon and IDF Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan circumvented the Supreme Court by simply claiming areas were closed for "security" reasons. Nonetheless, the Jewish National Fund raised money for land purchases in the West Bank and other occupied territories.

After 1979, legal restrictions on Jewish land acquisition in the West Bank were effectively removed, giving the government the authority to seize virtually any area it considered desirable for settlements.

Israel applied Jewish law to settlers in the occupied territories; incorporated settlements into regional councils based on Israeli municipal law; and opened Israeli courts in the settlements; and by effectively annexing occupied East Jerusalem by making Jerusalem the capital of Israel.

Begin set the precedent for all future prime ministers as Israel gained greater percentages of West Bank territory for exclusive control:

1983 - 35% of West Bank under exclusive Israeli control

1988 - 50% of West Bank under exclusive Israeli control

1994 - 64%-70% of West Bank under exclusive Israeli control

while 80% of water from the West Bank is piped exclusively to Israel and Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

The transparency of your post I bolded as I believe you are aware of the transparancy or flimsy wording you used in your post.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 09 September 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 07 September 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Some of what you say is pretty accurate but I am barely brushing the surface, I mean there was even collusion between Israel or rather David Ben-Gerion and King Abdullah of Transjordan, a secret pact of non-aggression in order to divide up ALL of Palestine between themselves (the Jews and Transjordan) and that Transjordan would not invade any territory earmarked by the UN for the Jewish state.

Now, Transjordan could have played a significant role in the 1948 war as they had 4,500-5,000 soldiers well-trained by the British Army. Transjordan ALONE possessed the only significant Arab army before the conflict. Transjordan by the way did fulfill that pact but David Ben-Gurion didnt fulfill that pact as Jewish forces aggressively invaded and annexed portions of territory earmarked for the Palestinian state, the same territory that Transjordan was expected to annex. Ben-Gurion's acceptance of the UN partition plan and his pact with Transjordan were iterim devices, tactical steps towards gaining all of Palestine.

"Establish a Jewish state at once, even if it  is not in the whole land. The rest will come in the course of time. It must come." David Ben-Gurion

My sources: Collusion Across The Jordan by Avi Shlaim and The Birth Of Israel by Simha Flapan.

Yes, I agree with you on that one too. BTW, I can see why Ben Gurion could not make good on that agreement with king Abdullah, and proclaimed the State as fast as he could in what we could get at first, albeit with the doors open for further acquisitions, which we were sure would come with new Arab attempts to drawn the Jews into the sea. They came and we got what we aimed for. But we let them take the blame to have striked first. I think our mistake was to prevent ourselves from pushing them all into the Transjordan side of the River, considering that their reason to attack was to force us into the sea. Besides, we should have taken advantage of the situation and destroyed the Dome of the Rock too. Now, we have to deal with this thorn on our flesh.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 09 September 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

The 1907 Hague International Convention prohibits an occupying power from confiscating land, property, food and water resources - Israel pipes 80% of the West Bank water to Israel and the Jewish Settlers - and the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupier from establishing any settlements for its population in occupied territory.

In 1977, Menachem Begin was elected prime minister of Israel. Begin was a former guerilla fighter and terrorist and Eretz Israel hawk.

Begin only promised to negotiate autonomy for the Palestinians but never agreed to the autonomy for the Palestinians. Meanwhile there were no Palestinian elections, no self-governing authority, and no withdrawal of any Israeli forces. Begin opposed Palestinian self-rule. His proposals were limited autonomy with refusal of Palestinian voters in East Jerusalem (West Bank) as Begin an Eretz Israel hardliner considered all of Jerusalem to be Israeli. And refusal of Palestinians in exile to vote. Israel refused to include an ability to draft laws in this autonomy. A sovereign Palestinian state was never proposed by Israel.

"Under no conditions will a Palestinian state emerge... the autonomy agreed upon at Camp David means neither sovereignty nor self-determination... at the end of the transition period, set down in the Camp David agreements, Israel will raise its claim, and act to realize its right of sovereignty over Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip." - Prime Minister Menachem Begin

Begin used the Sinai as a bargaining chip, feeling that UN242 was now satisfied in that now the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights were now not required. Nothing in these accords precluded the creeping annexation of the West Bank and Gaza through settlement expansion.

Over the next several years, under Prime Minister Menachem Begin, the West Bank settlements doubled, the Jewish population in the West Bank tripled and increased five fold the number of Jewish settlers inserted, provocatively, into densely packed traditional Palestinian centers.

Also Begin sought to change the legal status of the territories by imposing Israeli law even though it was illegal to do so under the Hague International Convention and the Fourth Geneva Convention.

How?

In spite that in 1979 the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against expropriation of private lands for settlement purposes, Agriculture Minister Ariel Sharon and IDF Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan circumvented the Supreme Court by simply claiming areas were closed for "security" reasons. Nonetheless, the Jewish National Fund raised money for land purchases in the West Bank and other occupied territories.

After 1979, legal restrictions on Jewish land acquisition in the West Bank were effectively removed, giving the government the authority to seize virtually any area it considered desirable for settlements.

Israel applied Jewish law to settlers in the occupied territories; incorporated settlements into regional councils based on Israeli municipal law; and opened Israeli courts in the settlements; and by effectively annexing occupied East Jerusalem by making Jerusalem the capital of Israel.

Begin set the precedent for all future prime ministers as Israel gained greater percentages of West Bank territory for exclusive control:

1983 - 35% of West Bank under exclusive Israeli control

1988 - 50% of West Bank under exclusive Israeli control

1994 - 64%-70% of West Bank under exclusive Israeli control

while 80% of water from the West Bank is piped exclusively to Israel and Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

The transparency of your post I bolded as I believe you are aware of the transparancy or flimsy wording you used in your post.

Ambush, I love to read your posts. Sometimes I read them more than once, albeit being familiar to me already. But if you are trying to make me understand what in your opinion, we should do and what we should not, too bad for the time. I do not believe or adopt the idea that we are occupiers of anyone's land. On the contrary, as we returned to the Land of Israel after exile, we found it occupied by Arabs. Therefore, they are the occupiers and not us. We offered them the chance to live together. They rejected the offer. They want us out? Too bad! We now want them out too. Let the conflict go on. There is no growth in inertia. Muscles isually go flab for lack of exercise.

Ben

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 10 September 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Ambush, I love to read your posts. Sometimes I read them more than once, albeit being familiar to me already. But if you are trying to make me understand what in your opinion, we should do and what we should not, too bad for the time. I do not believe or adopt the idea that we are occupiers of anyone's land. On the contrary, as we returned to the Land of Israel after exile, we found it occupied by Arabs. Therefore, they are the occupiers and not us. We offered them the chance to live together. They rejected the offer. They want us out? Too bad! We now want them out too. Let the conflict go on. There is no growth in inertia. Muscles isually go flab for lack of exercise.

Ben

Thank you for the compliment.

But you are wrong, when Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion addressed the Israeli Knesset on 11th of October 1961 "... push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive." It was a complete distortion and fabrication. No one whether historians, academicists, whomever has yet to cite David Ben-Gurion's source. NO ONE. No Arab can be found quoted as saying "... push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive." Or anything similar to that. It was a propaganda piece, an outright lie.

But the Arabs arent occupiers, they possessed Jerusalem for nearly 1,300 years. The Canaanites possessed Jerusalem for 2,000 years prior to the Davidic Kingdom. The Jews possessed Jerusalem for 500 years in comparision. Who is occupying who?

The Arab Palestinians arent johnnies come lately btw, their ancestry in Palestine dates back to prehistoric times. They are Arabicized native peoples.

Why didnt the Jews return to Palestine when the Roman Empire collapsed in the 4th C.E.? No, they chose 16 centuries later to create a Jewish state.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 10 September 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 10 September 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Yes, I agree with you on that one too. BTW, I can see why Ben Gurion could not make good on that agreement with king Abdullah, and proclaimed the State as fast as he could in what we could get at first, albeit with the doors open for further acquisitions, which we were sure would come with new Arab attempts to drawn the Jews into the sea. They came and we got what we aimed for. But we let them take the blame to have striked first. I think our mistake was to prevent ourselves from pushing them all into the Transjordan side of the River, considering that their reason to attack was to force us into the sea. Besides, we should have taken advantage of the situation and destroyed the Dome of the Rock too. Now, we have to deal with this thorn on our flesh.

Ben

Wow, spoken like a genuine dyed in the blood Zionist.

And why did David Ben-Gurion suddenly resign on June 16th 1963? And what did President Kennedy demand of him in letter sent via a cable to the US embassy  on the 15th a day previously to be delivered to Ben-Gurion? ... proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Israel was not developing nuclear weapons at its Dimona reactor facility. David Ben-Gurion's answer, I never got the letter before I resigned. Well, this wasnt the first correspondence Kennedy sent to Ben-Gurion that was on the subject of Israel, Dimona, and nuclear weapon development.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 11 September 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 10 September 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Quote

But you are wrong, when Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion addressed the Israeli Knesset on 11th of October 1961 "... push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive." It was a complete distortion and fabrication. No one whether historians, academicists, whomever has yet to cite David Ben-Gurion's source. NO ONE. No Arab can be found quoted as saying "... push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive." Or anything similar to that. It was a propaganda piece, an outright lie.

I don't have to look for verification of the Arab intention to get rid of the Jews out of the Middle East, I had it "viva-voce" from a Palestinian the other day here in a face-to-face dialogue, when I said that the place belongs to the stronger, he said that "Allah hu-Achbah," that day will come when they will be strong enough to push the Jews into the sea. I said, be my guest.

Quote

But the Arabs arent occupiers, they possessed Jerusalem for nearly 1,300 years. The Canaanites possessed Jerusalem for 2,000 years prior to the Davidic Kingdom. The Jews possessed Jerusalem for 500 years in comparision. Who is occupying who?

Now, you are the one terribly wrong. I have said before and I say again with History as my witness that Arabs started occupation of the Land of Israel in the 7th Century. Then, years later, with the rate of births, they started being known as Palestinians. The People of Israel has been in the Land of Israel since Joshua conquered the Land in 1451 BCE. Never mind that the Land had been promised to Abraham and his descendants forever, according to Genesis 13:15, which is clarified in Genesis 15:13 as the descendants of Abraham who became slaves in Egypt for 400 years, which, needless to mention, the text is talking about the Israelites.

Quote

The Arab Palestinians arent johnnies come lately btw, their ancestry in Palestine dates back to prehistoric times. They are Arabicized native peoples.

Palestine did not exist until the name was changed by Emperor Hadrian in the 2nd Century.

Quote

Why didnt the Jews return to Palestine when the Roman Empire collapsed in the 4th C.E.? No, they chose 16 centuries later to create a Jewish state.

I'll tell you why. When Cyrus proclaimed the return of the Jews to Israel, it was before the 70 years had passed. For some reason, according to Jeremiah 25:11,12, 70 years had to be fulfilled for the Jews to return, and 56 years had still to be fulfilled. The same thing with this last exile. The time was not ripe at the fall of Rome. IMHO, that time came with the end of WW1. Herzl had started to inspire the People to return to the Land of Israel, but they had got used to the fake peace in Germany and were hard to move. It had to take a Holocaust to wake them up. That's the mysterious part with regards to the end of exiles as Israel is concerned. It does not matter when the time came for us to return from exile. We returned, we claimed our Land back, we offered the chance to live together, they refused and became their fault to live today the way they do. Let their oil-rich brothers find a solution for them. We are back to stay
and that's where we will.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 11 September 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Wow, spoken like a genuine dyed in the blood Zionist.

And why did David Ben-Gurion suddenly resign on June 16th 1963? And what did President Kennedy demand of him in letter sent via a cable to the US embassy  on the 15th a day previously to be delivered to Ben-Gurion? ... proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Israel was not developing nuclear weapons at its Dimona reactor facility. David Ben-Gurion's answer, I never got the letter before I resigned. Well, this wasnt the first correspondence Kennedy sent to Ben-Gurion that was on the subject of Israel, Dimona, and nuclear weapon development.

So what? There is no secret about it.  We have it. And we will make sure that insane guy in Iran won't get it; just as we did in Iraq.
Today, the world is glad we did it.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 11 September 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 11 September 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

I don't have to look for verification of the Arab intention to get rid of the Jews out of the Middle East, I had it "viva-voce" from a Palestinian the other day here in a face-to-face dialogue, when I said that the place belongs to the stronger, he said that "Allah hu-Achbah," that day will come when they will be strong enough to push the Jews into the sea. I said, be my guest.

Thanks to David Ben-Gurion people still quote it ignorantly today.

Quote

Now, you are the one terribly wrong. I have said before and I say again with History as my witness that Arabs started occupation of the Land of Israel in the 7th Century. Then, years later, with the rate of births, they started being known as Palestinians. The People of Israel has been in the Land of Israel since Joshua conquered the Land in 1451 BCE. Never mind that the Land had been promised to Abraham and his descendants forever, according to Genesis 13:15, which is clarified in Genesis 15:13 as the descendants of Abraham who became slaves in Egypt for 400 years, which, needless to mention, the text is talking about the Israelites.

The Jews and Palestinian Arabs both have been inhabiting that same piece of land for thousands of years. Look, when the Muslims took Palestine in the 7th century they didnt dispossess the peoples already living there but Arabicized them and even intermarried with them. Is not Ishmael also a descendent of Abraham? Everyone is so intermixed these days, who cares?

And what exactly does Genesis 15:18 imply? Hmmm.... I guess God never fulfilled His promise... because no Jewish nation ruled from the River of Egypt to the River Euphrates have they? That would make God a liar unless He meant all descendants of Abraham.

Quote

Palestine did not exist until the name was changed by Emperor Hadrian in the 2nd Century.

Well, what do we call it historically... there were so many tribal states and names... Palestine is convenient thank you very much.

Quote

I'll tell you why. When Cyrus proclaimed the return of the Jews to Israel, it was before the 70 years had passed. For some reason, according to Jeremiah 25:11,12, 70 years had to be fulfilled for the Jews to return, and 56 years had still to be fulfilled. The same thing with this last exile. The time was not ripe at the fall of Rome. IMHO, that time came with the end of WW1. Herzl had started to inspire the People to return to the Land of Israel, but they had got used to the fake peace in Germany and were hard to move. It had to take a Holocaust to wake them up. That's the mysterious part with regards to the end of exiles as Israel is concerned. It does not matter when the time came for us to return from exile. We returned, we claimed our Land back, we offered the chance to live together, they refused and became their fault to live today the way they do. Let their oil-rich brothers find a solution for them. We are back to stay
and that's where we will.

Ben

What do you mean the time was not right after the fall of Rome... it is so plain and simple... the Jews never wanted to return to Palestine in 1,600 years.

No that is where you are wrong... the Arab Palestinians were never consulted before the Balfour Declaration was drawn up. And the only reason the Balfour Declaration was drawn because Britain indebted itself to the Zionists for not only recruiting American Jewry to lobby US to enter into WWI but also because the Balfour Declaration opened the door for the justification of British MILITARY occupancy in Palestine.

How long have the Jews ruled Israel independently in Palestine throughout all of history (excluding the State of Israel today), um, what 150-200 years? Well guess what, the Muslims ruled it almost continuously for almost 1,300 years from the 7th century C.E. to the 20th century C.E. Hmmm... wow when one does the math???

Independent Jewish rule of Palestine = 150-200 years
Independent Muslim rule of Palestine = 1,277 years

And the Canaanites ruled Jerusalem itself for at least 2,000 years as it is known to predate King David by as much years.

[B Jenkins]

Ben Masada, on 11 September 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

So what? There is no secret about it.  We have it. And we will make sure that insane guy in Iran won't get it; just as we did in Iraq.
Today, the world is glad we did it.

Ben

Yeah, but Israel's stance is quite vague with  this official quote, "Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East. Israel supports a Middle East free of all weapons of mass destruction following the attainment of peace."

What does introduce mean? Experts say it means that Israel will not openly test a weapon or declare publicly that it has one.

[Bluefinger]

Ben Masada, on 01 September 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

My answer is based on the part of the learnt Jews who are on the growth from superstition into reality. The prophecies about a coming Messiah is not of an individual but of the collective in the People of Israel, aka, the Jewish People. An individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. Read Jeremiah 31:35-37. What is part of the Jewish dream, as the Messiah is concerned, is of a messianic era when the Jewish place and role in the world is acknowledged by al nations.

Ben

That doesn't really seem sound to me.  It is obvious that those who wrote down many of the Hebrew Scriptures believed that the Messiah would be a literal person.  After 2,000 years of not having their own land, I can understand why some Jews would try to refine the Messianic prophecies.  The Jeremiah prophecy you mentioned wasn't in context to the Messiah, but the people.  It is clear from many Scriptures that the Messiah would come and deliver His people a new covenant.  Am I to believe now that the recipients are also the providers of the new covenant?  That is close to Pharisaic theology, wouldn't you say?

Obviously, I believe that Jesus is and has always been the Messiah.  It is Jewish prophecy that the Messiah would enter the second temple and that it's glory would be greater than Solomon's temple.  We both know that Herod, who lavished the temple, was not the Messiah.  Seeing that the temple was destroyed and the only one who both claimed to be the Messiah and prophesied the temple's destruction, wouldn't it be better to say that Jesus, who resurrected, is the Messiah than to say that the people who asked the Romans to occupy their land in the first place were both the providers and recipients of the new covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31?

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 12 September 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Quote

Thanks to David Ben-Gurion people still quote it ignorantly today.

It was an ignorant Arab who quoted it to me.

Quote

The Jews and Palestinian Arabs both have been inhabiting that same piece of land for thousands of years. Look, when the Muslims took Palestine in the 7th century they didnt dispossess the peoples already living there but Arabicized them and even intermarried with them. Is not Ishmael also a descendent of Abraham? Everyone is so intermixed these days, who cares?

Yes, Ishmael was also a descendant of Abraham, "BUT, My Covenant, said the Lord, I will maintain with Isaac" ...and not with Ishmael. (Gen. 17:21) Then, if you read further in Genesis 21:10, Abraham was demanded to "Drive Hagar and Ishmael out  because he could not share the inheritance of the Land with Isaac the son of Sarah, aka, the Jews.

Quote

And what exactly does Genesis 15:18 imply? Hmmm.... I guess God never fulfilled His promise... because no Jewish nation ruled from the River of Egypt to the River Euphrates have they? That would make God a liar unless He meant all descendants of Abraham.

Genesis 15:18 inplies the Divine promise that has not been fulfilled YET. It does not mean at all that God has been proved a liar. The descendants of Abraham through Isaac are still around, aren't they? So, that conclusion about God is not becoming.

Quote

Well, what do we call it historically... there were so many tribal states and names... Palestine is convenient thank you very much.

It just happened that "Palestina" was the name given in honor to the Roman Emperor's wife. Nothing related to a specific people.

Quote

What do you mean the time was not right after the fall of Rome... it is so plain and simple... the Jews never wanted to return to Palestine in 1,600 years.

Perhaps you will not understand, the prophetic tone here that, no matter what, a prophecy is not over until it is fulfilled. The fact that only very few of the Jews decided to return, was also prophesyed in Isaiah 10:22. "Although the Jews were like the sand of the sea, only a small remnant of them would return."
From Babylon only 42,360 returned with Ezra in the first Aliyah. (Ezra 2:64) After the present exile, which ended soon after WW1 very few indeed returned
because Herzl was not charismatic enough; but the process has been continuous to this very day. So much so that we still have more Jews abroad than here in Israel. But we are already a majority of more than six million Israelis in the hope that an added two million join us from USA, God willing!

Quote

No that is where you are wrong... the Arab Palestinians were never consulted before the Balfour Declaration was drawn up. And the only reason the Balfour Declaration was drawn because Britain indebted itself to the Zionists for not only recruiting American Jewry to lobby US to enter into WWI but also because the Balfour Declaration opened the door for the justification of British MILITARY occupancy in Palestine.

Political balderdash!

Quote

How long have the Jews ruled Israel independently in Palestine throughout all of history (excluding the State of Israel today), um, what 150-200 years? Well guess what, the Muslims ruled it almost continuously for almost 1,300 years from the 7th century C.E. to the 20th century C.E. Hmmm... wow when one does the math???

Many different peoples have ruled that enclave in the Middle East which has never ceased to be called the Land of Israel for the Jews, and Palestine because of Hadrian, the Roman Emperor, but it has never been an independent State governed by none. There has never been an independent country called Palestine in the History of the world. Therefore, Palestinians have never governed that region as an independent entity for a single day. Since you cannot prove with the opposite of what I am saying, the math was not that hard to figure.

Quote

Independent Jewish rule of Palestine = 150-200 years
Independent Muslim rule of Palestine = 1,277 years

Mere verbal juggling that means nothing.

Quote

And the Canaanites ruled Jerusalem itself for at least 2,000 years as it is known to predate King David by as much years.

If you take that route, what was there before the "big bang?" The atheists do not know. Where are the Canaanites? Let them come to claim Jerusalem from David. What are the Palestinians talking about? They have been there from yesterday. The Jews from the day before. Those who were there before the Jews, do not exist anymore.

Ben

[Ben Masada]

Ambush Bug, on 12 September 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

Yeah, but Israel's stance is quite vague with  this official quote, "Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East. Israel supports a Middle East free of all weapons of mass destruction following the attainment of peace."

What does introduce mean? Experts say it means that Israel will not openly test a weapon or declare publicly that it has one.

I think we should stop here with the political part of this thread. Not too wise for me to continue. I could slip and talk too much for my own personal harm. Therefore, back to the problem the Pope has in Rome. Theology is safer. Thank you.

Ben