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#601    TrueBeliever

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 24 October 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Actually not!

Simply because no explosions are seen in the videos nor heard on audio, nor detected on seismic monitors, and in fact, no shred of evidence of explosives was ever found,either within the rubble of the WTC buildings or at the Fresh Kills landfill.

Question is; who made up the tale that explosives were used when there was no evidence of explosives in the first place? It has been over 11 years and  yet, not one shred of evidence of explosives has surfaced. :no:



Aluminum! After all, tons of aluminum was used in the facade of the WTC buildings and in the construction of the B-767s and we know that temperatures were high enough to melt aluminum, but not steel.



Fire!!! After all, we have all kind of evidence of fires within the WTC buildings, but absolutely no evidence of explosives.



As the WTC buildings collapse, there is no sound of explosions.



No sound of any explosions in that video as WTC2 collapsed. Now, let's take a look at WTC7.



No sound  of explosions as WTC7 collapsed either! :no:

Question is:

Who has been spreading disinformation and misinformation regarding non-existent bomb explosions when it is very clear in the videos that as the WTC buildings collapsed, there are no sounds of explosions. :no:

what about the dead bodies Barry Jennings stepped over in WTC 7? Why does official story state NO deaths there? One of them is lying. And i see no reason for jennings to lie.....


#602    TrueBeliever

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:47 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 25 October 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Which is why I have said that knowledge allows a person to know when to hold 'em, and when to throw 'em.



As mention before, government blunders are nothing new and I have seen my share of government blunders during decades of government service.



Looking at history, 9/11 Truthers themselves, have been victims of disinformation and misinformation, such as, turning off a transponder will make an aircraft invisible on radar. How many times have 9/11 Truthers thrown that piece of false information at their opposition?

As I have said many times before, the B-767 and the B-757 are not stealth aircraft and we cannot expect enemy bomber crews to think that turning off their transponder will make them invisible to radar. After all, there are valid reasons why we have stealth aircraft. So here is another example of where knowledge comes on the playing field to set the record straight.



What does it mean when someone says; "A new Pearl Harbor?"

Remember, the Japanese were going to attack the United States no matter what preparations were made. We were on alert in the Philippines right after the Pearl Harbor attack and still took a serious beating. Needless to say, the Germans were delighted that the United States was blasted into the  war by the Japanese, especially to the delight of German U-boat crews who were placed under restrictions due to the fact that the United States had not yet entered into World War II.



I am very aware of the 'good old boy' mentality within government circles where it is difficult to punish certain government officials or on the other hand, they may just  receive a slap on the wrist for an incident that would land a typical civilian in prison or fired from the job.

J. Edgar Hoover wasn't thrown into prison because he failed to warn President Roosevelt of Japanese intentions just prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and I don't expect members of the CIA and the FBI to be thrown into prison either because some things never change in government, however,  the American people have the power to make changes, but who is willing to step forward to put those changes into action?

I might add that Hitler's blunders cost him the war, but allied blunders cost the lives of millions.


I asked why do you think the Visa express program was begun? For SAUDI ARABIA???(hint: alot of the hijackers were from there)  why would US want them gaining easier access to our shores? any ideas?


#603    flyingswan

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:04 AM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 25 October 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

what about the dead bodies Barry Jennings stepped over in WTC 7? Why does official story state NO deaths there? One of them is lying. And i see no reason for jennings to lie.....
Why do conspiracists wheel out the same old long-debunked stuff again and again?

The WTC7 lobby was used as a triage station.  Look it up.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#604    Q24

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:08 AM

I know I said that I would be ignoring skyeagle but he continues to spread barefaced lies and distortions that are worth correction…

View Postskyeagle409, on 25 October 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Looking at history, 9/11 Truthers themselves, have been victims of disinformation and misinformation, such as, turning off a transponder will make an aircraft invisible on radar. How many times have 9/11 Truthers thrown that piece of false information at their opposition?

As I have said many times before, the B-767 and the B-757 are not stealth aircraft and we cannot expect enemy bomber crews to think that turning off their transponder will make them invisible to radar. After all, there are valid reasons why we have stealth aircraft. So here is another example of where knowledge comes on the playing field to set the record straight.

The fact is that turning off the transponder (which transmits position and identification data to ATC) does remove the track from civil secondary surveillance radar (SSR).  The aircraft can still be tracked on primary radar but without the distinguishing transponder data, only unidentified ‘blips’ are visible to controllers - like looking for a needle in a haystack on their displays.  And even through primary radar, due to clutter and gaps in coverage, it can be difficult to track even unidentified aircraft.  In all, when the transponder is switched off, the location of the plane for a time and certainly its identity can effectively become ‘invisible‘ to radar controllers.

Anyone can research transponder and radar returns for themselves to confirm the above but here are some quotes demonstrating the situation on 9/11…

9/11 Commission report: -

The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate
this issue further.Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that
FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was
turned off at 8:56. But for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05,
this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers
at Indianapolis Center.
  The reasons are technical, arising from the way the
software processed radar information, as well as from poor primary radar coverage
where American 77 was flying.

According to the radar reconstruction,American 77 reemerged as a primary
target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known position.
The target remained in Indianapolis Center’s airspace for another six minutes,
then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center’s airspace at
9:10.As Indianapolis Center continued searching for the aircraft,two managers
and the controller responsible for American 77 looked to the west and southwest
along the flight’s projected path, not east—where the aircraft was now
heading. Managers did not instruct other controllers at Indianapolis Center to
turn on their primary radar coverage to join in the search for American 77.

In sum, Indianapolis Center never saw Flight 77 turn around. By the time
it reappeared in primary radar coverage, controllers had either stopped looking
for the aircraft because they thought it had crashed or were looking toward
the west.Although the Command Center learned Flight 77 was missing, neither
it nor FAA headquarters issued an all points bulletin to surrounding centers
to search for primary radar targets. American 77 traveled undetected for
36 minutes on a course heading due east for Washington, D.C.



Norman Mineta interview with MSNBC: -

And a little later on, someone said, “Mr. Vice President, there's a plane 50-miles out.” So I was talking to Monte Belger, the Deputy Director of the FAA, and I said, “Monte, what do you have 50-miles out?”

He said, “Well, we have a target, bogey, on the radar, but the transponder's been turned off, so we have no identification of this aircraft. We don't know who it is. We don't know what altitude it's at, speed or anything else. All we're doing is watching with the sweep of the radar, the dot moving from position to position.



Daniellie O’Brien, Dulles ATC, interview with ABC News: -

“Then I noticed the aircraft. It was an unidentified plane to the southwest of Dulles, moving at a very high rate of speed … I had literally a blip and nothing more.



FAA timeline: -

0925:00 Between 0925:00 and 0930:00, this time is approximate based on personnel statements from Dulles Terminal Radar Approach Control (IAD).  Several IAD controllers working radar positions in the facility observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed.  Note: the unknown aircraft in this and all following times was later confirmed to be AAL77.



Why is all this worthy of note?  The loss of position and identification information on 9/11, with incomplete tracking and subsequent designation as unidentified/unknown aircraft, provided opportunity for deception of ATC and opened the door to the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff plan that had been set out in Operation Northwoods decades before: -

“Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida.  From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status.  The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan.”



Once we also question reason for the complete lack of physical identification of the 9/11 aircraft, then one must suspect foul play - a scenario that would not exist given a competent investigation.  It is disconcerting that the possibility is viable and has been allowed to continue to exist.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#605    Q24

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:15 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 25 October 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I asked why do you think the Visa express program was begun? For SAUDI ARABIA???(hint: alot of the hijackers were from there)  why would US want them gaining easier access to our shores? any ideas?

That is an excellent observation which I was not aware of, or at least had forgotten.  To expand for anyone interested… the Visa Express program was initiated by the U.S. State Department in May 2001 (only three months after coming of the Bush administration) to allow Saudi citizens to enter the U.S. without proof of identity.  Through this method it is reported that three of the hijackers entered the country.  An official described this as “an open-door policy for terrorists”.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Visa_Express

Of further interest is that eleven of the hijackers, including the three above, obtained their Visas through the same consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia known to have been a base of CIA operations for terrorist recruitment during Operation Cyclone.

http://www.historyco...i_arabia_office

Of course official adherents will claim this is all yet another round of miscalculation and coincidence, where one answer would do: false flag operation.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#606    skyeagle409

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:51 PM

View PostQ24, on 25 October 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

I know I said that I would be ignoring skyeagle but he continues to spread barefaced lies and distortions that are worth correction…

The fact is that turning off the transponder (which transmits position and identification data to ATC) does remove the track from civil secondary surveillance radar (SSR).  The aircraft can still be tracked on primary radar but without the distinguishing transponder data,...

And, what did I say about turning off a transponder does not make an aircraft invisible? Information on that aircraft will be lost, but it can still be tracked despite what some 9/11 Truthers have said.

Quote

9/11 Commission report: -

The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate
this issue further.Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that
FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was
turned off at 8:56. But for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05,
this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers
at Indianapolis Center.
  The reasons are technical, arising from the way the
software processed radar information, as well as from poor primary radar coverage
where American 77 was flying.

According to the radar reconstruction,American 77 reemerged as a primary
target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known position.
The target remained in Indianapolis Center’s airspace for another six minutes,
then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center’s airspace at
9:10.As Indianapolis Center continued searching for the aircraft,two managers
and the controller responsible for American 77 looked to the west and southwest
along the flight’s projected path, not east—where the aircraft was now
heading. Managers did not instruct other controllers at Indianapolis Center to
turn on their primary radar coverage to join in the search for American 77.

In sum, Indianapolis Center never saw Flight 77 turn around. By the time
it reappeared in primary radar coverage, controllers had either stopped looking
for the aircraft because they thought it had crashed or were looking toward
the west.Although the Command Center learned Flight 77 was missing, neither
it nor FAA headquarters issued an all points bulletin to surrounding centers
to search for primary radar targets. American 77 traveled undetected for
36 minutes on a course heading due east for Washington, D.C.



Norman Mineta interview with MSNBC: -

Primary information on an aircraft will be lost if the transponder is turned off, not the blip of the aircraft itself.

"The initial problem in spotting Flight 77 arose because the FAA's preferred radar didn't cover this area, and the secondary radar system had only poor coverage. Further “tertiary” and “quadrary radars were available, but the FAA ATC system couldn't use these to display primary data.

Apparently, you didn't even  understand what you have posted. Now, let's take a look at the track of American 77. Listen, and pay close attention at time line 0:58, that in regards to ground controllers tracking an unidentified aircraft.



Quote


0933:00This time is approximate based on personnel statements from IAD.An Operations Supervisor at IAD advised the White House Office of the United States Secret Service of an unknown aircraft heading in the direction of the White House, fast moving. Meanwhile a controller was providing the same information to controllers working at the Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport Traffic Control Tower (DCA). The IAD Operations Supervisor also provided continuous updates on a critical event teleconference established at the Federal Aviation Administration Headquarters building.

0933:00This time is approximate based on personnel statements from DCA.An Operations Supervisor at DCA was advised by IAD of the unknown aircraft. The Operations Supervisor at DCA immediately notified the White House Office of the United States Secret Service of the unknown aircraft's location and provided continuous updates.

0936:00 Personnel at DCA issued traffic advisories on the unknown aircraft to a military C130 aircraft that had departed Andrews Air Force Base. when the C130 aircraft (GOFER06) reported the unidentified aircraft in sight, the pilot was instructed to follow the unknown aircraft.

0938:00 GOFER06 reported that the unknown aircraft had crashed into the western side of the Pentagon.

http://www.911myths....s/6/61/Faa7.pdf

Posted Image

The reconstruction attached was only possible through the compilation of other radar data sources not ordinarily displayed to controllers under these circumstances

What that means is that American 77 was being tracked by ground controllers at the time they notified the C-130, but its identity remained unknown to ground controllers because the transponder was turned off, and yet ground controllers brought American 77 to the attention of the C-130, so once again, turning off the transponder does not  render an aircraft invisible on radar, it just wipes out its identify and makes it difficult to track among many blips.

Edited by skyeagle409, 25 October 2012 - 07:42 PM.

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#607    skyeagle409

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:59 PM

View PostQ24, on 25 October 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Of further interest is that eleven of the hijackers, including the three above, obtained their Visas through the same consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia known to have been a base of CIA operations for terrorist recruitment during Operation Cyclone.

http://www.historyco...i_arabia_office

Are you implying that the CIA has offices only in Saudi Arabia? Remember, the CIA was also on the target list of those terrorist, as revealed by Philippine government officials after they uncovered the Bojinka Plot.

Quote

Of course official adherents will claim this is all yet another round of miscalculation and coincidence, where one answer would do: false flag operation.

There is not a shred of evidence of a false flag operation. :no:

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#608    skyeagle409

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:15 AM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 25 October 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I asked why do you think the Visa express program was begun? For SAUDI ARABIA???(hint: alot of the hijackers were from there)  why would US want them gaining easier access to our shores? any ideas?

Nothing to do with a conspiracy, but just another step in a long list of government missteps and blunders that I have been speaking of. Check it out.

Quote

(CNSNews.com) – The Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency’s Visa Security Program (VSP), created to prevent terrorists from obtaining visas to enter the United States, is not being employed at 11 of the 20 "highest risk" visa-issuing overseas posts, according to federal auditors.


In DHS’s Visa Security Program Needs to Improve Performance Evaluation and Better Address Visa Risk Worldwide, a March 2011 Government Accountability Office (GAO) report released on April 21, the GAO concludes that the absence of VSP presence at 11 of the top 20 U.S. consular offices abroad most at risk of issuing Visas to potential terrorists represents ‘a significant gap’ in the security of the visa-issuing process.

http://cnsnews.com/n...bia-home-15-911

The government is not known for getting everything done in a timely manner.

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#609    Q24

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:27 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 25 October 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

it just wipes out its identify and makes it difficult to track

Yeah, that's the whole point - you got there in the end.


View Postskyeagle409, on 25 October 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Are you implying that the CIA has offices only in Saudi Arabia? Remember, the CIA was also on the target list of those terrorist, as revealed by Philippine government officials after they uncovered the Bojinka Plot.

I would not advise that you personally attempt to interpret my statements because you get it wrong every time.  I mean, "Are you implying that the CIA has offices only in Saudi Arabia?" is a frankly stupid question and I don't know what type of logic you used to produce it.  Anyhow, I did not imply anything in my previous post but made a statement of fact.  If you actually want my interpretation of the fact regarding the terrorist acquisition of Visas (not that I think you are genuinely interested in understanding), it is further indication, along with everything else, that U.S. government and CIA elements assisted the hijackers on their path to 9/11.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#610    skyeagle409

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:13 PM

View PostQ24, on 26 October 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Yeah, that's the whole point - you got there in the end.

I have always said that turning off the transponder does not make an aircraft invisible on radar, and remember, the B-757 is not a stealth aircraft.

Quote

I would not advise that you personally attempt to interpret my statements because you get it wrong every time.  I mean, "Are you implying that the CIA has offices only in Saudi Arabia?"

Of course not, but we do know that the terrorist have threaten to attack CIA headquarters with an airplane.

Quote

...is a frankly stupid question and I don't know what type of logic you used to produce it.  Anyhow, I did not imply anything in my previous post but made a statement of fact.  If you actually want my interpretation of the fact regarding the terrorist acquisition of Visas (not that I think you are genuinely interested in understanding), it is further indication, along with everything else, that U.S. government and CIA elements assisted the hijackers on their path to 9/11.

You have yet to present evidence of a 9/11 government conspiracy, which explains after more than 11 years why no such evidence has surfaced.

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#611    TrueBeliever

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:26 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 26 October 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

I have always said that turning off the transponder does not make an aircraft invisible on radar, and remember, the B-757 is not a stealth aircraft.



Of course not, but we do know that the terrorist have threaten to attack CIA headquarters with an airplane.


what we have yet to see is a LEGITIMATE investigation into 9/11..............being ignorant is one thing. But being gullible and trusting and just accepting all 'blunders of govt as just how it has always been......STUPID!

If all those red flags were 'just' blunders I do believe at the least someone in our govt should have been charged with criminally negligent homicide. The Visa Express program wasn't some dumb blunder IMO......but if it WAS according to you.....WHY do you think it was implemented?
.I am truly interested to hear WHY YOU think the Visa Express program for SAUDI ARABIANS was STARTED? who thought it up?

Edited by TrueBeliever, 28 October 2012 - 10:28 AM.


#612    skyeagle409

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:37 AM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 28 October 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

what we have yet to see is a LEGITIMATE investigation into 9/11..............being ignorant is one thing. But being gullible and trusting and just accepting all 'blunders of govt as just how it has always been......STUPID!

There is no evidence of a 9/11 government conspiracy and never was.

Quote

If all those red flags were 'just' blunders I do believe at the least someone in our govt should have been charged with criminally negligent homicide. The Visa Express program wasn't some dumb blunder IMO......but if it WAS according to you.....WHY do you think it was implemented?

Intelligence failures and blunders are noting new and has been going on for decades before, and in the years following the 9/11 attacks. Now, what would have happened if the CIA and the FBI arrested or killed important people before they led to the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden? The surface calm of the sea is not indicative of the raging current below.

Edited by skyeagle409, 28 October 2012 - 10:41 AM.

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#613    TrueBeliever

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:52 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 26 October 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Nothing to do with a conspiracy, but just another step in a long list of government missteps and blunders that I have been speaking of. Check it out.



The government is not known for getting everything done in a timely manner.


i am speaking of the Visa Express program solely for Saudi Arabia.

WHY do you think we had that?


#614    skyeagle409

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:09 AM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 28 October 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

i am speaking of the Visa Express program solely for Saudi Arabia.

WHY do you think we had that?

Could be for a number of reasons. How long did the CIA track a particular individual who eventually led them to Osama bin Laden?

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#615    TrueBeliever

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:12 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 28 October 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Could be for a number of reasons. How long did the CIA track a particular individual who eventually led them to Osama bin Laden?

what are those number of reasons , in your opinion?





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