50 replies to this topic

[Mattshark]

illuminol, on 16 February 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

That's right! many many words have the same root source, but the word i'm interested in, in this case is 'matter' because its everything around us, and it's what we're made of.
There's an intelligence there, like a hidden secret that matter is 'mother' of everything.
And to add to the fun connection, it depends on how matter is arranged - the pattern of matter, through which diverse forms evolve. Pattern is from the latin for father, so there's a syncronicity happening that symbolically reflects many many myths and also appears to be in harmony with laws of nature, of physics.

That is a weak argument. The whole premise of your suggestion is that you like the idea yet you choose to deliberately ignore the parts the don't fit.
Also, only works in one language.

Edited by Mattshark, 16 February 2010 - 03:07 PM.

[Emma_Acid]

illuminol, on 16 February 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

That's right! many many words have the same root source, but the word i'm interested in, in this case is 'matter' because its everything around us, and it's what we're made of.
There's an intelligence there, like a hidden secret that matter is 'mother' of everything.
And to add to the fun connection, it depends on how matter is arranged - the pattern of matter, through which diverse forms evolve. Pattern is from the latin for father, so there's a syncronicity happening that symbolically reflects many many myths and also appears to be in harmony with laws of nature, of physics.

Its all a bit pointless, much like most of these "pick n link" pseudo-science hypotheses. You can link any word with any other word and form a wonky semantic link between them, while simultaneously ignoring every other meaning.

Mother comes from the Proto-Indo-European "ma" which means "breast".

It was only linked to the "matter" (as in everything around us) much later. For example, "Madeira" is Portuguese for "wood". These makes much more sense as a root of the word "matter". You can post-rationalise it and say that both "mothers" and "trees" are the "origins" of things, but I think this is a step too far - and that's before we've even linked it to "father" yet.

"Pattern" comes from "patron" - simply meaning a socially upstanding individual who's behaviour should be repeated or imitated - literally a "model".

So then linking "matter" (from the very ancient word "ma") to "pattern" (from the 1500s) and thinking its describing some hidden code about the universe (but only in English) is quite beyond a stretch.

[Leonardo]

illuminol, on 15 February 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

Most Etymologists agree that the word 'matter' is a derivitive of the latin word 'mater' meaning mother. How did this happen? and how does this relate to the word 'pattern' which is derived from the latin word for father?  Deliberate or meaningful co-incidence?

Well, matter is derived from the Latin materia, which in turn is derived from mater, so you'd have to state that matter is a second derivative of mater to be truly accurate. This does have consequences for reading meanings into words and why they are derived from others.

Similarly, pattern is a second derivation of pater, with it's first derivator (?) being patron.

As for any hidden meaning in this, it is unlikely. Such words are derived based on a perceived association in their own context, not the absolute meaning of the word they are derived from. By example, I would say that matter is derived by being considered the origin of 'stuff' - just as mater is the origin of other 'stuff' (us). So, the contextual association is 'origin', not 'mother'.

Edited by Leonardo, 16 February 2010 - 04:01 PM.

[illuminol]

Leonardo, on 16 February 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Well, matter is derived from the Latin materia, which in turn is derived from mater, so you'd have to state that matter is a second derivative of mater to be truly accurate. This does have consequences for reading meanings into words and why they are derived from others.

Similarly, pattern is a second derivation of pater, with it's first derivator (?) being patron.

As for any hidden meaning in this, it is unlikely. Such words are derived based on a perceived association in their own context, not the absolute meaning of the word they are derived from. By example, I would say that matter is derived by being considered the origin of 'stuff' - just as mater is the origin of other 'stuff' (us). So, the contextual association is 'origin', not 'mother'.

I get what you mean, and that's the first intelligent answer i've heard..(besides the interesting sanscrit reference that slimjim mentioned about 'mata')
I know it's a second derivative, i'm interested in why it surfaced from the root word.
Love to use my imagination and have not much interest in the scientific validity of this particular idea. Because that's all it is, an idea that i enjoy discussing rather than arguing over. I was unable to get anything but insults at another thread so started this one to see what happened.  I think that's absolutely correct! the contextual association is 'origin'. The hidden meanings are personal and symbolic fo me. I'm an abstract expressionist painter and i spend alot of time allowing myself to make connections where i see them, and often where there aren't any to other people.    when you say
"such words are derived based on a percieved association in their own context" percieved by who? How do these words appear in the language and who chose them? Sounds like a natural association though.

[illuminol]

Emma_Acid, on 16 February 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

Its all a bit pointless, much like most of these "pick n link" pseudo-science hypotheses. You can link any word with any other word and form a wonky semantic link between them, while simultaneously ignoring every other meaning.

Mother comes from the Proto-Indo-European "ma" which means "breast".

It was only linked to the "matter" (as in everything around us) much later. For example, "Madeira" is Portuguese for "wood". These makes much more sense as a root of the word "matter". You can post-rationalise it and say that both "mothers" and "trees" are the "origins" of things, but I think this is a step too far - and that's before we've even linked it to "father" yet.

"Pattern" comes from "patron" - simply meaning a socially upstanding individual who's behaviour should be repeated or imitated - literally a "model".

So then linking "matter" (from the very ancient word "ma") to "pattern" (from the 1500s) and thinking its describing some hidden code about the universe (but only in English) is quite beyond a stretch.

...and mata - mother in sanscrit.
I am speaking philosophically gumnut. hidden codes are personal - some people share 'em, others don't.

predictable.

Mattshark, on 16 February 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:

That is a weak argument. The whole premise of your suggestion is that you like the idea yet you choose to deliberately ignore the parts the don't fit.
Also, only works in one language.

you again. give up. why don't you keep telling me that the root word for matter isn't mater? are you over that one.

Edited by illuminol, 17 February 2010 - 01:00 PM.

[Mattshark]

illuminol, on 17 February 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

I am speaking philosophically gumnut.
predictable.




you again.

Well it is nice to see what a well reason and intelligent response you can come up with. I mean how dare people hold a different view to you!

[Soupy]

Mattshark, on 17 February 2010 - 12:54 PM, said:

Well it is nice to see what a well reason and intelligent response you can come up with. I mean how dare people hold a different view to you!

I must admit Im finding the arguing more interesting than the topic.

[illuminol]

Mattshark, on 17 February 2010 - 12:54 PM, said:

Well it is nice to see what a well reason and intelligent response you can come up with. I mean how dare people hold a different view to you!

I'm a fast learner and a pretty accurate mirror.

[Mattshark]

Soupy, on 17 February 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

I must admit Im finding the arguing more interesting than the topic.

[illuminol]

Soupy, on 17 February 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

I must admit Im finding the arguing more interesting than the topic.

lol. yeah i know it must be boring, i had to go online to find a discussion about it.

[Mattshark]

illuminol, on 17 February 2010 - 01:06 PM, said:

I'm a fast learner and a pretty accurate mirror.

Angelegenheit and Muster

That link still there?

Záležitost and vzorec

How about now?

[Leonardo]

illuminol, on 17 February 2010 - 12:49 PM, said:

"such words are derived based on a percieved association in their own context" percieved by who? How do these words appear in the language and who chose them? Sounds like a natural association though.

Generally, it would be those (or the one) who coins the word that sets the association.

In the case of mater the context is one of 'predecessor' or 'that from which something came'. Materia or matter however is 'that from which something is made/formed'. The context is different, but the word association (origin) to that context is the same.

This is why it is unreliable to hypothesise hidden meanings across word associations, because often the context is not taken into account. It might seem romantic to 'see' hidden meanings, but language is a tool, rather than an art-form (although is can be used in artistic expression, of course) and, as such, it is generally more practical than romantic. That is my opinion, anyway.

[Emma_Acid]

illuminol, on 17 February 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

hidden codes are personal - some people share 'em, others don't.

Not really "codes" then are they?

[illuminol]

Emma_Acid, on 17 February 2010 - 01:25 PM, said:

Not really "codes" then are they?

that was your word i used matey. i don't much like the term.

[illuminol]

Leonardo, on 17 February 2010 - 01:24 PM, said:

Generally, it would be those (or the one) who coins the word that sets the association.

In the case of mater the context is one of 'predecessor' or 'that from which something came'. Materia or matter however is 'that from which something is made/formed'. The context is different, but the word association (origin) to that context is the same.

This is why it is unreliable to hypothesise hidden meanings across word associations, because often the context is not taken into account. It might seem romantic to 'see' hidden meanings, but language is a tool, rather than an art-form (although is can be used in artistic expression, of course) and, as such, it is generally more practical than romantic. That is my opinion, anyway.

That's very clear, i see what you mean. You've managed to lift some of the mystery of it for me - but the meaning, well would you believe it's deepened somewhat. I probably drive the more logically minded crazy.
Yes, language is a tool, a practical medium, but so is a brush and a tube of paint. It takes a creative mind, a gifted mediator, to do something magical with it for sure.
What are your thoughts on metaphor and meaningful coincidence by the way? Would you exclude language from taking on multi-layered meanings? Maybe that's not your area of interest but i'm interested to know your opinion on it.
I'm asking this because, call me crazy, That both mater and matter alude to 'origin' is still very meaningful to me, even more so.