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A theory of everything "space" and "all"

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#16    Arpee

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:35 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 16 August 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

So the mind doesn't actually do anything? How can you tell it exists then?

The mind is that which is aware of the thoughts that come and go.


View PostRlyeh, on 16 August 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I disagree with your terminology, if a solid wall was not solid then objects would pass through it. Since this doesn't happen, it is by definition solid.

I think you missed the point: from the quantum view, it has space, but it doesn't look so from this human perspective.

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#17    Arpee

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:51 AM

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

The mind does nothing...But it can't perceive nothing...anyway? So it does not care...But the mind cannot perceive caring...?

The mind is the observer, the mind is the thinker, the physical body is the bearer of sensation.

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:


This mind sounds terrible stupid. Can you even call it a mind?

What do you think a "mind" is? Is the mind the thoughts? Or is the mind the space that the thoughts are happening within? If the mind is the thoughts, then there might as well be no difference between "thought" and "Mind".

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

What does it do with everything it absorbs? Whats the point of observing if it cannot do anything with the information it observes? Why would a mind like this even bother to exist?

I don't understand this at all.

Purpose is not a function of mind, it is a function of brain (when it making up goals and understanding "usefulness" of achieving that goal). The mind just observers, no purpose.

Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the ungrateful and to the evil. - Luke 6:35

#18    Rlyeh

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:43 AM

View PostArpee, on 16 August 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

The mind is that which is aware of the thoughts that come and go.
In order for the brain to not only form thoughts but analyze and further elaborate on these thoughts, it too is aware of thoughts. Sounds like this mind doesn't do anything.
How do you know this mind exists, when the brain does it all and more?

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I think you missed the point: from the quantum view, it has space, but it doesn't look so from this human perspective.
I understood the point, I still found the terminology misleading.


#19    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostArpee, on 15 August 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Panpsychism originates from the Greek words "Pan" which means "All", and "Psyche" which means "Mind". Panpsychism is the view that all things have mind or that there is a centralized mind for all things that exist. The idea seems bizarre at first, but if we look into the structure of the universe, it doesn't seem so far fetched.

Imagine you were born slightly brain damaged in that your senses werent connected to your grey matter. In such a state you wouldnt have awareness of an outside universe and probably wouldnt know one existed. A question - Would the outside universe actually exist?

To many thats an insane question to ask so they automatically say yes, but thats not very scientific. What we are asking is in the absence of information does an object continue to exist. Please watch the following video -



That video says when no information is being gained particles cease to be particles and become a superposition of all possibilities instead. Scale it up and the universe we see only exists because our senses gain information (measurement). That indicates when we cease gaining information there is no material universe just a superposition of all possibilities. Better called the multiverse.

Reality is 100% subjective there is nothing objective out there.

If you have a look at Buddhism or Hinduism the highest states of Yoga are liberation. That means learning to block all information to the mind so the universe dissolves into a superposition.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 16 August 2012 - 11:37 AM.


#20    StarMountainKid

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:46 PM

Ok, let me ask this simple question: where is the seat of consciousness? Is it in the brain or in the mind?

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#21    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 02:48 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 16 August 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Ok, let me ask this simple question: where is the seat of consciousness? Is it in the brain or in the mind?

The most fundamental thing is the mind.

It brings into being the brain, the body and the reality around us.


#22    Kazoo

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostArpee, on 16 August 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

The mind is the observer, the mind is the thinker, the physical body is the bearer of sensation.

Wait a second the mind thinks?

Quote

Purpose is not a function of mind, it is a function of brain (when it making up goals and understanding "usefulness" of achieving that goal). The mind just observers, no purpose.

Exactly. What led it to observing? Things in the universe don't just happen. Its a sort of cause and effect. There is no advantage to it observing. So why is the mind capable of it? It just...is? The mind of incapability of understanding opinionated concepts. Where is the information it is absorbing going? Some sort of information is being transferred to the universe to the mind. What is happening with this information? Why observe when you have nothing to gain from observing?

Yes I know the mind cannot bother to to think of these concepts. But I'm asking you. What goal is this fulfilling other then existing? Why does it even bother to exist...? It just does? Why does each mind just not randomly stop existing? What is keeping these things in check? Is the universe like compelling the minds to observe everything?

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#23    Arpee

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:59 AM

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Wait a second the mind thinks?

I meant to say that the mind observes and the brain thinks.

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

What led it to observing? Things in the universe don't just happen. Its a sort of cause and effect.

Nothing (Space/Mind) does not need a cause and effect. Only physical reality (and spiritual reality - if you believe in that) does. It has always been observing. So if there were nothing before, what was it observing? Its own observation (self-awareness).

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

There is no advantage to it observing. So why is the mind capable of it? It just...is?

If you read back a few posts, I explain why purpose can not exist in the mind (observation) only in the brain (the thinker).


View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Where is the information it is absorbing going? Some sort of information is being transferred to the universe to the mind. What is happening with this information? Why observe when you have nothing to gain from observing?

There is no purpose to observe. Purpose can only exist when there is thought (and goals - physical brain - the thinker).

View PostKazoo, on 16 August 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Yes I know the mind cannot bother to to think of these concepts. But I'm asking you. What goal is this fulfilling other then existing? Why does it even bother to exist...? It just does? Why does each mind just not randomly stop existing? What is keeping these things in check? Is the universe like compelling the minds to observe everything?

The mind cannot randomly stop existing because it never began to exist in the first place. It is just here, always. We begin to associate the "mind" (the seer) to the brain (the thing being seen). The brain thinks. The mind just observes, forever. Also there is no "my" or "your" mind, it is just mind, not belonging to anyone - so in a way all are connected to it. It is the space and the "things" (that which is being observed) arises from it - but it just happens - the mind never thinks just observes but it can be aware of the thoughts happening within the brain.

Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the ungrateful and to the evil. - Luke 6:35

#24    Rlyeh

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:08 AM

As the brain does everything this "mind" does, what makes you think this mind exists?


#25    gentai

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:21 AM

i agree with harpee except in a way im finding hard to describe. everything is the mind energy. brain is receiver / supercomputer / translator. thoughts are the brains translations of all stimuli simultaneously. so everything we experience is an aspect of mind. so its quite possible that mind might have more than just the aspect of observation. i guess i disagree with harpee in respect to memory. mind contains memory. you could say memory is an aspect of duality but, then, what would be the duality of memory? past and present? but what about future? or is the duality in true and false memories? regardless of those questions, if the brain is not the only one observing then it is also not the only one with memory. it doesnt matter if there is meaning or not. the only observer that might fit your description is a "god" seperate from mind. which is entirely possible.
great topic, by the way.


#26    gentai

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:36 AM

oh! and this ones for rlyeh. no 2 atoms ever touch each other. its just their electric fields that keep them together. we "feel" the fields. if we take away the fields solids could pass through each other with ease like sunlight thru water. the problem is if we remove the fields the atoms forget what they are supposed to be doing. (does this mean electrons give atoms memory?)  thats why there aint nothing there but its enough to experience.


#27    Rlyeh

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:52 PM

View Postgentai, on 17 August 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

oh! and this ones for rlyeh. no 2 atoms ever touch each other. its just their electric fields that keep them together.
You're not tell me anything new.

Quote

we "feel" the fields. if we take away the fields solids could pass through each other with ease like sunlight thru water. the problem is if we remove the fields the atoms forget what they are supposed to be doing. (does this mean electrons give atoms memory?)  thats why there aint nothing there but its enough to experience.
This is impossible and nonsensical.
If you could take away the fields, you wouldn't have atoms. Just as if you pulled your car apart, you'd no longer have a car.


#28    StarMountainKid

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:15 PM

I'm still wondering where consciousness lies in the OP's hypothesis or conjecture.

When the brain is damaged or when the brain malfunctions, consciousness is also affected.

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#29    lightly

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:33 PM

I like it Arpee.   ... i wonder..    If consciousness/mind is non physical.   Brain is physical of course.  .. sort of the equivalent of the relationship in energy and matter  between  . . virtual  and  physical.

   Mind is potential?   I like your observant mind   idea,  but maybe mind is more involved?   How did the universe become physical?  if the universal mind did nothing but observe?  

Of course many do believe that physicality is an illusion.. a construct of  mind.    Anyway, very interesting Arpee.
  
◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊
ORIGIN late Middle English : from late Latin potentialis, from potentia ‘power,’ from potent- ‘being able’ (see potent 1 ). The noun dates from the early 19th cent.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#30    Arpee

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:02 PM

View Postgentai, on 17 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

i agree with harpee except in a way im finding hard to describe. everything is the mind energy. brain is receiver / supercomputer / translator. thoughts are the brains translations of all stimuli simultaneously. so everything we experience is an aspect of mind. so its quite possible that mind might have more than just the aspect of observation.

How did you get from, "thoughts are the brains translations of all stimuli simultaneously" to "so its quite possible that mind might have more than just the aspect of observation"?

The Mind "Observes" and The Physical "Takes Action".  


View Postgentai, on 17 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

ii guess i disagree with harpee in respect to memory. mind contains memory.

Memory is thought about the past. If we already know that The Brain is thinking (neuron communication) and that the mind is observing, then the mind cannot contain memory (thoughts of past).


View Postgentai, on 17 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

you could say memory is an aspect of duality but, then, what would be the duality of memory? past and present? but what about future?

Why would "past" and "present" be duality? Present is happening NOW. You can observe it. Past and Future you have to actually "think" about with the brain, so yes, "Past" and "Future" would be duality, not "Now".

View Postgentai, on 17 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

if the brain is not the only one observing then it is also not the only one with memory.

In the beginning you already said that you believe that everything is mind energy. If this is true, then the brain must be a part of mind energy, too, which it is. The mind is just aware of the "functioning" of the brain (the thoughts), but it is the actual brain which think thoughts about the past which we call memory. The mind is aware of now, and aware of the thoughts of the past and future being thought NOW - The mind is always present observing now - but it can give the illusion of observing the past or future if those thoughts are being thought by the brain NOW.


View Postgentai, on 17 August 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

the only observer that might fit your description is a "god" seperate from mind. which is entirely possible.

I already explained "who" or "what" the observer is in the original post, and there is no such thing as "separation" as I already explained in the original post of this thread.

Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the ungrateful and to the evil. - Luke 6:35





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