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Phoenix - Flares Debunked


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#1    zoser

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:13 AM

I was never convinced by the flare theory and neither were hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw the lights on 13th March 1997.  Watch the video from 0:55:30 to 1:04:27.

One of the key items of evidence against the flare theory is that they were allegedly dropped an hour before the first sighting.  Also different witnesses saw them across a 100 mile or so distance and flares clearly do not travel in a formation for that long over that distance.  The many witnesses that you are about to see in the video will all testify to this.  One of them is a trained pilot.

Finally, the flare theory always did sound a little too convenient for me.  Ask yourself why would the military do that so close to a populate area anyway; what was it going to achieve.  Flare of course are regarded as dangerous.  

So I hope this resolves the issue once and for all and puts the ridiculous flare theory to bed; when I saw this clip, I felt it was so important that it deserved it's own thread.  The important part is less than 10 minutes long.  Enjoy



Edited by zoser, 17 June 2012 - 09:09 AM.

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#2    lost_shaman

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:35 AM

View Postzoser, on 17 June 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

One of the key items of evidence against the flare theory is that they were allegedly dropped an hour before the first sighting.

You have your information all wrong. There clearly where Flares. We discussed this in-depth and showed Flares were used in the BE-III thread.

Edited by lost_shaman, 17 June 2012 - 08:36 AM.

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#3    zoser

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:41 AM

View Postlost_shaman, on 17 June 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

You have your information all wrong. There clearly where Flares. We discussed this in-depth and showed Flares were used in the BE-III thread.

Watch the 10 minute clip then give me your conclusion.  The people on the clip were actually there and they recall the incident well.  Listen to them.

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#4    Hazzard

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:51 AM

I agree with Shaman. We have disected the PL a couple of times in the last BE thread. After looking at both sides evidence and arguments there is no doubt in my mind that the first sighting was aircraft flying in formation, and the second event was flares.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#5    zoser

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:03 AM

View PostHazzard, on 17 June 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

I agree with Shaman. We have disected the PL a couple of times in the last BE thread. After looking at both sides evidence and arguments there is no doubt in my mind that the first sighting was aircraft flying in formation, and the second event was flares.

I doubt whether you have seen these testimonies H.  That's why I started this thread; I genuinely believe it kills the flare theory stone dead.  Watch it and share your views; this is the best evidence we have.

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#6    Yes_Man

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

I been to Phoenix and i spoke to some people and they said it was flares, also the large concentration of bases in the area, flares can be seen a fair way out, like the Titanic's flares


#7    Hazzard

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:46 AM

View Postzoser, on 17 June 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I doubt whether you have seen these testimonies H.  That's why I started this thread; I genuinely believe it kills the flare theory stone dead.  Watch it and share your views; this is the best evidence we have.

The UFO phenomenon is not fantasy. It exists, and it is not made up. UFOs are probably observed every single day by someone. That they are alien spacecraft, or even associated with alien spacecraft is in fact fantasy, since there is utterly no credible evidence of this whatsoever, anywhere.

You, yourself have demonstrated a "credulousness" that indicates a bias when examinating evidence  youtube videos, and in this case of the Phoenix lights all you have are eye witness opinions on what those lighs might represent. That is all you have here. Dont get me wrong, zoser, I understand that some people love the idea of Earth or its human inhabitants have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors. But frankly, there is no support, no hard scientific evidence, to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

People have opinions and people believe all sorts of wacky stuff,... and I dont care if the entire world believe in ET visitation.


The matter of alien visitation will be decided by the evidence, not by the intensity of opinion. From a scientific point of view any evidence in existence that cannot be provided for independent scrutiny is non-existent, and cannot be included,... no matter how many eye witness reports are shown, they are not evidence either.

Edited by Hazzard, 17 June 2012 - 11:50 AM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#8    Babe Ruth

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:57 PM

Judging by some of the posts here, I wonder if being in denial about the existence of UFO is a form of xenophobia?

The way we deal with UFO is perhaps the best example of how the government obfuscates as a matter of habit.


#9    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:20 PM

View PostHazzard, on 17 June 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

The UFO phenomenon is not fantasy. It exists, and it is not made up. UFOs are probably observed every single day by someone. That they are alien spacecraft, or even associated with alien spacecraft is in fact fantasy, since there is utterly no credible evidence of this whatsoever, anywhere.

You, yourself have demonstrated a "credulousness" that indicates a bias when examinating evidence  youtube videos, and in this case of the Phoenix lights all you have are eye witness opinions on what those lighs might represent. That is all you have here. Dont get me wrong, zoser, I understand that some people love the idea of Earth or its human inhabitants have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors. But frankly, there is no support, no hard scientific evidence, to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

People have opinions and people believe all sorts of wacky stuff,... and I dont care if the entire world believe in ET visitation.


The matter of alien visitation will be decided by the evidence, not by the intensity of opinion. From a scientific point of view any evidence in existence that cannot be provided for independent scrutiny is non-existent, and cannot be included,... no matter how many eye witness reports are shown, they are not evidence either.

Personally, I think the ETs are here, and that many of them are hostile.  I can make a pretty good case for that, too, given that there have been a lot of "incidents" with UFOs being chased, fired on and firing back that are not imaginary. No one in the military who knew anything ever thought that it was, going back to the 1940s, especially when people were being killed in UFO encounters.

"The stuff that dreams are made of"

#10    zoser

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:25 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 17 June 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Judging by some of the posts here, I wonder if being in denial about the existence of UFO is a form of xenophobia?

The way we deal with UFO is perhaps the best example of how the government obfuscates as a matter of habit.

Some good words there; just looking them up in dictionary .com: ok got it.  You mean that there is a group of people on this forum who have a fear of acceptance regarding the UFO phenomena and because their fear is such a powerful influence upon them they refuse to accept the truth? Also you are saying that the Governments of the world try and put forward their own explanations to put people off the subject because they fear what the public reaction may be if they knew the truth?  

I agree with you on both points.  Totally.  Welcome to the forum.

Z

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#11    Hazzard

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:25 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 17 June 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Judging by some of the posts here, I wonder if being in denial about the existence of UFO is a form of xenophobia?

I have no idea what posts you are referring to. I dont think I have ever seen anyone here at UM denying the existence of UFOs.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#12    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:28 PM

By hostile, I mean that in the sense that not all snakes are poisonous and not all of them will bite you, but none of them could exactly be called friendly either.

"The stuff that dreams are made of"

#13    zoser

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostErix, on 17 June 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I been to Phoenix and i spoke to some people and they said it was flares, also the large concentration of bases in the area, flares can be seen a fair way out, like the Titanic's flares

Perhaps you need to speak to a larger cross section of people.  Did the people you spoke to see the crafts, or were they just regurgitating the official explanation?

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#14    julia52

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:17 PM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 17 June 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Personally, I think the ETs are here, and that many of them are hostile.  I can make a pretty good case for that, too, given that there have been a lot of "incidents" with UFOs being chased, fired on and firing back that are not imaginary. No one in the military who knew anything ever thought that it was, going back to the 1940s, especially when people were being killed in UFO encounters.

i completely agree, and, to the poster that said that eye-witness testimony is not acceptable evidence, then i guess we better throw out courtroom procedure..'testimonial evidence' this is the term that it used, and yes, it does depend on the witness, but there are too many  reputable trained observers to discount these sightings.

and-the concept that these 'acknowledged ufos' are not extra-terrestrial, is, in my mind, wishful thinking..again, too many indicators relate these craft and the beings inside as something that is not indigenous to earth..it has nothing to do with thinking we are 'special' in any way, it is just looking at all the enormous amount of testimony, evidence, documents, that would lead one to logically come to the conclusion that there is some sort of 'surveillence' taking place...and it ain't from angels or demons, imo...


#15    booNyzarC

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:31 PM

View Postzoser, on 17 June 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

I was never convinced by the flare theory and neither were hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw the lights on 13th March 1997.  Watch the video from 0:55:30 to 1:04:27.

One of the key items of evidence against the flare theory is that they were allegedly dropped an hour before the first sighting.  Also different witnesses saw them across a 100 mile or so distance and flares clearly do not travel in a formation for that long over that distance.  The many witnesses that you are about to see in the video will all testify to this.  One of them is a trained pilot.

Finally, the flare theory always did sound a little too convenient for me.  Ask yourself why would the military do that so close to a populate area anyway; what was it going to achieve.  Flare of course are regarded as dangerous.  

So I hope this resolves the issue once and for all and puts the ridiculous flare theory to bed; when I saw this clip, I felt it was so important that it deserved it's own thread.  The important part is less than 10 minutes long.  Enjoy

If you actually think that any part of this segment has any impact on the flare conclusion, it belies only one thing; you don't know much about this case at all.

This segment wasn't concentrating on the 10 PM event that was captured on video by Mike K, Chuck R, Tom K, and Lynne K from four different locations.  It includes an interview with Mike K and shows his video, but that is probably because it was simply the most famous piece of footage from the night overall.  The bulk of the testimony in this segment that you're on about is regarding the earlier events that didn't involve the flares.

As such, it does nothing to the flare conclusion whatsoever.

One might ask why they neglected to include the only footage that does exist of the earlier events though?  And why they neglected to include the testimony of witnesses who identified the earlier events as planes in formation?  Well, the name of the show can answer that.

If you want to discuss the earlier sightings represented in this highlighted segment of yours, you may want to read this first.

Cheers.





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