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Edward Snowden NSA whistleblower


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#121    questionmark

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 17 June 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Snowden is now turning toward telling how the UK spied on all the other countries who visited the 2009 G20 meeting in London, England.

So, how would he even have this information? Seems a bit far-fetched from a low level private contractor analyst and this could disrupt global affairs as well as hurt our allies.

This is revealed right as a G8 meeting begins, also in the UK, this time in Northern Ireland. His "America spies on China" leak also had suspicious timing around the Sunnylands meeting between Obama and Xi Jinping.



GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits / Exclusive: phones were monitored and fake internet cafes set up to gather information from allies in London in 2009

Like you find out all secrets if you work for an agency, you rummage here, you rummage there, you look in the paper basket for thrown away papers that should not have been thrown away...  just like anybody else does it... just some will talk others keep quiet.

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#122    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:00 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 17 June 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Like you find out all secrets if you work for an agency, you rummage here, you rummage there, you look in the paper basket for thrown away papers that should not have been thrown away...  just like anybody else does it... just some will talk others keep quiet.

That is not really how a SCIF works...

Information is compartmentalized between departments so one does not know what the other is doing. Secrets are not just tossed in the trash in any case.

Besides that is all old school. Supposedly Snowden has all this information on four laptops. Not exactly secrets collected from a rubbish bin or just lying around, which would not happen anyways, nothing is just lying around anymore if the operator is not directly working with it, or walks away, it will be secured in some form.

Of course electronic spying is a new frontier. Was he hacking while on the job? No way one low level employee was entrusted with all this information. Did another, greater entity (China!!!) mine it, and are now using him to disseminate it?

Whoever has the most to gain by all these revelations is most likely behind it. It is like Wiki Leaks all over again except most likely it is not an organization with the same type of mission as Wiki Leaks. Either a corporation or state is behind Snowden is my guess.

Edited by The world needs you, 17 June 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#123    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 17 June 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

No Pallidin, there ARE NOT warrants under PRISM.  There is NO PROBABLE CAUSE.

As you are asserting that there is either, please provide proof.

It's quite clear that this megadata is gathered on everybody and anybody, without a warrant and with no probable cause.

You can fool yourself into thinking there is, but I'm perhaps paying closer attention than you are.

Courts have the final decision on what is legal or constitutional. Sometimes the decision a court makes is not well-liked by me but it is still respected. That is why we have the judicial branch.

Neither me, you, Snowden, libertarian politicans, talk show hosts, or some random person on the forum can tell us what is legal or constitutional. PRISM will be taken to court most likely, it already has by Yahoo in 2008, and it will likely be heard in higher more open courts as well, but in either case the courts decide.





Here is another non-judicial opinion so take it for what it's worth. It is worth about as much as our opinions but might be a bit more informed:

Quote

From the point of view of any non-resident alien who has US cloud data, this is a very ponderable answer. We know what the Fourth Amendment says. The problem is that apparently (IANAL!) the US courts are upholding the idea that the Fourth Amendment does not apply to the US-based cloud data of non-US-resident non-US-citizens. I've heard a couple of people suggesting that this interpretation is based on the idea of border search, but that's neither here nor there: the upshot is that, unlike for example the US property of non-US-resident non-US-citizens, which is protected by the Takings Clause, the US cloud data of non-resident aliens seems to have no Constitutional protection. This seems to be the Constitutional foundation of FISA http://www.gpo.gov/f...UTE-92-Pg178... 702 http://www.govtrack....110/hr6304/text , the law which allows the NSA to get Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Orders against non-resident aliens. Absolutely the only thing the government has to prove to the FISC court to get one of these orders is that the targets are (more likely than not!) non-resident aliens. No probable cause, no standard of suspicion for anything: the government doesn't even have to state its motivation. And the "Notwithstanding any other provision of law" language in 702 seems to sweep away any other statute law you (or Rackspace etc.) might want to use against the order. (Again IANAL.)

*snip*

https://news.ycombin...item?id=5859307


Keep in mind (IANL = I am not a lawyer) and neither are you.

In other words the mantra of "it is not constitutional" adds nothing new to the conversation or changes the final outcome. Whether our courts finally decide it is, or what elements of these programs are legal or not, it won't be decided here on this forum.

Edited by The world needs you, 17 June 2013 - 02:28 PM.


#124    questionmark

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 17 June 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

That is not really how a SCIF works...

Information is compartmentalized between departments so one does not know what the other is doing. Secrets are not just tossed in the trash in any case.

Besides that is all old school. Supposedly Snowden has all this information on four laptops. Not exactly secrets collected from a rubbish bin or just lying around, which would not happen anyways, nothing is just lying around anymore if the operator is not directly working with it, or walks away, it will be secured in some form.

Of course electronic spying is a new frontier. Was he hacking while on the job? No way one low level employee was entrusted with all this information. Did another, greater entity (China!!!) mine it, and are now using him to disseminate it?

Whoever has the most to gain by all these revelations is most likely behind it. It is like Wiki Leaks all over again except most likely it is not an organization with the same type of mission as Wiki Leaks. Either a corporation or state is behind Snowden is my guess.

Hey I worked for the government in a secret installation for almost a decade, don't tell me how it works...I know. There is this theoretical "need to know" doctrine that is translated in practice to "you only don't know if you don't care a sh!t".

And, at the beginning there was no need for any state to be behind Snowden, but once you blow the whistle you better have, either your own or a foreign one cause else you end up in a very deep hole and the key gets thrown away.

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#125    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:39 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 17 June 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Hey I worked for the government in a secret installation for almost a decade, don't tell me how it works...I know. There is this theoretical "need to know" doctrine that is translated in practice to "you only don't know if you don't care a sh!t".

And, at the beginning there was no need for any state to be behind Snowden, but once you blow the whistle you better have, either your own or a foreign one cause else you end up in a very deep hole and the key gets thrown away.

Not going to ask how long ago that was or why someone would even admit they worked in any "secret installation".

Edited by The world needs you, 17 June 2013 - 02:40 PM.


#126    questionmark

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 17 June 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

Not going to ask how long ago that was or why someone would even admit they worked in any "secret installation".

I can, the cold war is over. And after the cold war the program was disbanded. Things don't have changed all that much, I worked as journalist after it and still got at all information I wanted using  the exact same ways.

As long as more than two know a secret ceases to be a secret real fast.

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#127    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 17 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

*snip*

As long as more than two know a secret ceases to be a secret real fast.

Nice, here is another view:

Quote

Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead.

—Benjamin Franlkin





Now here is a more recent view on how the secrets were smuggled out, including how Snowden exceeded his authorized access and used a thumb drive (at least according to the LA Times).

Keep in mind a thumb drive or any device with a USB outlet such as cell phones, any device with camera capabilities as well, are not allowed into a SCIF.

Quote

*snip*

The Los Angeles Times first reported that Mr. Snowden used a USB thumb drive to smuggle electronic copies of an unknown number of classified documents out of the NSA facility in Hawaii where he worked. A U.S. official confirmed to The Washington Times “that’s one avenue” investigators are following.

The use of thumb drives on classified military systems — including those at NSA — has been effectively banned since malicious software, thought to be of Russian origin, infected the secret computer networks of U.S. Central Command five years ago.

A number of commercially available programs can switch off the USB port of every computer on the network.

“There is easily available software to do that,” said the security specialist, noting that there were also low-tech, more permanent means available.

“I have seen places where they used a hot glue gun to block it,” he said of the USB port.

Lawmakers briefed by NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander have not commented on the thumb-drive, but have said that Snowden was able to do something else he should not have been able to — exceed his authorized access to the NSA’s computer systems.

“It’s clear that he attempted to go places that he was not authorized to go, which should raise questions for everyone,” said House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Chairman Michael Rogers, Michigan Republican, on Thursday.

*snip*

NSA leaker Ed Snowden used banned thumb-drive, exceeded access


Something is still not adding up. No one computer system would hold all these secrets in one place unless a serious network security lap that needs correcting was in place. That could very well be it and the thumb drive scenario but it would take some time to fill up four laptops full of information a thumb drive at a time.

Oh well, when it does come out how exactly it was done there is no need for the public to know and if it is already known they most likely will not be telling.

Edited by The world needs you, 17 June 2013 - 03:48 PM.


#128    Frank Merton

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:40 PM

One wonders who was writing Mr. Snowdon's paycheck and showing him what to do.


#129    Spiral staircase

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

Indeed, Snowden is a liar by claiming one private contractor can have access to so much information or tap/bug any American citizen on a whim.

His claims are sensationalist and there is still doubt those claims originated with him instead of a higher entity using him as a mouthpiece.


#130    Yamato

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:10 PM

At this point, how he accessed the information is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.   Speeding, illegal lane changes and making an improper turn without using his turn signal is immaterial.   The access he had appears to be over an extended period of time at his job.    This isn't even really news without the details.   Rand Paul has been warning for months if not years that the correspondences the federal government is listening to is in the billions.   Did anyone else even hear him?

Quote

Indeed, Snowden is a liar by claiming one private contractor can have access to so much information or tap/bug any American citizen on a whim.
What evidence on the limits of access to information do you have to say this?  Please quote Snowden on what you're even talking about.

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#131    Babe Ruth

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 17 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Courts have the final decision on what is legal or constitutional. Sometimes the decision a court makes is not well-liked by me but it is still respected. That is why we have the judicial branch.

Neither me, you, Snowden, libertarian politicans, talk show hosts, or some random person on the forum can tell us what is legal or constitutional. PRISM will be taken to court most likely, it already has by Yahoo in 2008, and it will likely be heard in higher more open courts as well, but in either case the courts decide.





Here is another non-judicial opinion so take it for what it's worth. It is worth about as much as our opinions but might be a bit more informed:



https://news.ycombin...item?id=5859307


Keep in mind (IANL = I am not a lawyer) and neither are you.

In other words the mantra of "it is not constitutional" adds nothing new to the conversation or changes the final outcome. Whether our courts finally decide it is, or what elements of these programs are legal or not, it won't be decided here on this forum.

Not persuasive in the least.  We all speak English, and the language used in the Constitution is English.  One need not be a lawyer to understand the language used in the document.

You seem to be busy as a little bee, defaming Snowden. :innocent:


#132    pallidin

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 17 June 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

No Pallidin, there ARE NOT warrants under PRISM.  There is NO PROBABLE CAUSE.

As you are asserting that there is either, please provide proof.

It's quite clear that this megadata is gathered on everybody and anybody, without a warrant and with no probable cause.

You can fool yourself into thinking there is, but I'm perhaps paying closer attention than you are.

OK, here's just one:

Retired Gen. Michael Hayden, a former NSA director, said on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS" that what the agency collects are "essentially billing records" that detail the time, duration and phone numbers involved in a call.

The records are added to a database that agents can query in cases involving a terror investigation overseas, and agents can't eavesdrop on Americans' calls without an order from a secret court that handles intelligence matters, he said.

If a phone number related to an investigation has links to a domestic phone number, "We've got to go back to the court," he said.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2


#133    Kowalski

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

View Postpallidin, on 17 June 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

OK, here's just one:

Retired Gen. Michael Hayden, a former NSA director, said on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS" that what the agency collects are "essentially billing records" that detail the time, duration and phone numbers involved in a call.

The records are added to a database that agents can query in cases involving a terror investigation overseas, and agents can't eavesdrop on Americans' calls without an order from a secret court that handles intelligence matters, he said.

If a phone number related to an investigation has links to a domestic phone number, "We've got to go back to the court," he said.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t2

And what makes you think he is telling the truth?


#134    pallidin

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostKowalski, on 17 June 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

And what makes you think he is telling the truth?

Hahahahahaaaaa!!!! Well, if he is lying, I have no idea.

Funny how CT's only consider information that supports their own position, and quickly dismisses that which does not.

I choose to consider all sides of a table before moving it around my living room.

Edited by pallidin, 17 June 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#135    Yamato

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:00 PM

View Postpallidin, on 17 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Hahahahahaaaaa!!!! Well, if he is lying, I have no idea.

Funny how CT's only consider information that supports their own position, and quickly dismisses that which does not.

I choose to consider both sides of a table before moving it around my living room.
On one side of the table: Government secrecy.   On the other:  Individual privacy.    For some people, the 2nd side still weighs a lot more.

What does this have to do with conspiracy theory?

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