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#61    third_eye

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:10 AM

well ... all investments toward making and having bombs of MASS DESTRUCTION seems to show highest return of potential yield profits ...

If you're having so much fun having one why wouldn't everyone wants one now ?

On top of that ... all those broken promises of deArmament, reDuction ///

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' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#62    and then

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 15 April 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

It is totally unwarranted. Or had you forgotten the actual outcomes of Iraq and Afghanistan? Iran will build its bomb like Iraq was building their bomb, right? :unsure2:
I realize that it's easy to make such a comparison but if you look at the evidence that is casually available and is accepted by most of the world you can see that Iran OPENLY DECLARES their right to the nuclear fuel cycle.  They have multiple sites churning out enriched uranium - some of them buried deep to prevent them being bombed.  No comparison with Iraq here.  The real question is whether any country that desires nukes should have them and if not, then what can be done to stop it from happening.  The answer seems to be that the world has decided that there is no justification for stopping any committed nation from acquiring nukes IF it requires a war to do so.  Your generation is going to reap the fruit of that appeasement.  I have a simple worldview but it seems reasonable in light of history.  Mankind fights, kills steals, lusts after power.  Always has, always will.  Real evil exists in our world and has to be defended against or it will reign.  When people do nothing it grows strong.  If you need any real justification for the idea of bombing Iran before they can actually assemble a bomb, I commend your attention to North Korea.

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  for what could be, the darkest age...

#63    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:44 PM

View Postand then, on 15 April 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

I realize that it's easy to make such a comparison but if you look at the evidence that is casually available and is accepted by most of the world you can see that Iran OPENLY DECLARES their right to the nuclear fuel cycle.  They have multiple sites churning out enriched uranium - some of them buried deep to prevent them being bombed.  No comparison with Iraq here.  The real question is whether any country that desires nukes should have them and if not, then what can be done to stop it from happening.  The answer seems to be that the world has decided that there is no justification for stopping any committed nation from acquiring nukes IF it requires a war to do so.  Your generation is going to reap the fruit of that appeasement.  I have a simple worldview but it seems reasonable in light of history.  Mankind fights, kills steals, lusts after power.  Always has, always will.  Real evil exists in our world and has to be defended against or it will reign.  When people do nothing it grows strong.  If you need any real justification for the idea of bombing Iran before they can actually assemble a bomb, I commend your attention to North Korea.

I know, I don't have to look far. Britain, United States - thats what you mean by evil, right?

It'll be a cold day in hell when I support war over telling a country they can't have what we have.

Everyone has them or nobody has them. End of the story for me.

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#64    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:08 AM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 16 April 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

I know, I don't have to look far. Britain, United States - thats what you mean by evil, right?

It'll be a cold day in hell when I support war over telling a country they can't have what we have.

Everyone has them or nobody has them. End of the story for me.
Truer words have never been spoken.  I admire your attachment to "fairness".  Good luck with that.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#65    GoSC

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:47 AM

View Postand then, on 14 April 2013 - 03:14 AM, said:

So how would you solve it BJ?  Every post drips venom about Israel.  How would you solve the issue?

Easy!

1. Cease the occupation of the West Bank and lift the siege off of Gaza

2. Dismantle all settlements in the West Bank with forcible if necessary removal of the settlers themselves

3. Israel give monetary and financial compensation to the Palestinians for the homes and lands seized and taken away during the events leading up to the formation of the State of Israel and the 1948 War written under U.N. Resolution 194 which states the Palestinian refugees are entitled and have the rights to compensation and repatriation.

This would do wonders to settle peace once and for all between Israel and the Palestinians.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#66    third_eye

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:06 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 April 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Easy!

1. Cease the occupation of the West Bank and lift the siege off of Gaza

2. Dismantle all settlements in the West Bank with forcible if necessary removal of the settlers themselves

3. Israel give monetary and financial compensation to the Palestinians for the homes and lands seized and taken away during the events leading up to the formation of the State of Israel and the 1948 War written under U.N. Resolution 194 which states the Palestinian refugees are entitled and have the rights to compensation and repatriation.

This would do wonders to settle peace once and for all between Israel and the Palestinians.

Just hand over the whole stash to Palestinia (sic) ?

They'll shoot this Jack again twice over multiple times .... they want Jerusalem ... not the 'lands'

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#67    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:20 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 17 April 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Just hand over the whole stash to Palestinia (sic) ?

They'll shoot this Jack again twice over multiple times .... they want Jerusalem ... not the 'lands'
Agreed, and they also, from their own mouths for many years, have stated they want to eradicate the "descendants of apes and pigs".  When people dismiss the actual words being chanted and taught to children generation after generation then I feel they are complicit with what flows from that.  BJ sees one side - always just one side.  And the truth about those who are so concerned with the plight of the Palestinians is that they would probably not even bother with insincere lip service if a second holocaust happened.  Hell, some would welcome it openly.  Only that isn't going to ever play out the same again.  The next time the whole world will burn, not just Israel.  And the supporters of the Palestinians seem blind to it.  Well, fire brings heat and light...

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#68    third_eye

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:36 AM

View Postand then, on 17 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Agreed, and they also, from their own mouths for many years, have stated they want to eradicate the "descendants of apes and pigs".  When people dismiss the actual words being chanted and taught to children generation after generation then I feel they are complicit with what flows from that.  BJ sees one side - always just one side.  And the truth about those who are so concerned with the plight of the Palestinians is that they would probably not even bother with insincere lip service if a second holocaust happened.  Hell, some would welcome it openly.  Only that isn't going to ever play out the same again.  The next time the whole world will burn, not just Israel.  And the supporters of the Palestinians seem blind to it.  Well, fire brings heat and light...

Nobody will allow another holocaust ... no matter how much the supporters of Palestine support the cause. This is a Zionapartheid policy that is disagreeable, which some is saying is as a holocaust on the Palestinians.
Anyways ... the GOlden Rule applies :

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The Golden Rule existed among all the major philosophical schools of Ancient China: Mohism, Taoism, and Confucianism. Examples of the concept include:
  • "Zi Gong asked, saying, "Is there one word that may serve as a rule of practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not reciprocity such a word?" – Confucius[13][14]
  • "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." – Confucius[15]
  • "If people regarded other people's families in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own family to attack that of another? "For one would do for others as one would do for oneself." – Mozi
  • "The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." –Laozi[16]
  • "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." –Laozi[17]

"What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others." Confucious


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The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity is a maxim,[1] ethical code or morality[2] that essentially states either of the following:
  • (Positive form of Golden Rule): One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.[1]
  • (Negative form of Golden Rule): One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (also known as the Silver Rule).


wiki Golden Rule

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#69    keithisco

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:02 AM

View Postand then, on 17 April 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Agreed, and they also, from their own mouths for many years, have stated they want to eradicate the "descendants of apes and pigs".  When people dismiss the actual words being chanted and taught to children generation after generation then I feel they are complicit with what flows from that.  BJ sees one side - always just one side.  And the truth about those who are so concerned with the plight of the Palestinians is that they would probably not even bother with insincere lip service if a second holocaust happened.  Hell, some would welcome it openly.  Only that isn't going to ever play out the same again.  The next time the whole world will burn, not just Israel.  And the supporters of the Palestinians seem blind to it.  Well, fire brings heat and light...

Please, do not forget that the 1st Holocaust affected Gypsies, Homosexuals, Intellectuals, Polish, Communists, Dissenters etc in equal numbers to those whose only crime was to be Jewish. Lets not also forget that Jews are not a homogeneous people, they have their extremists just as The nation of Islam does.

Israel (Govt) is concerned that Iran MAY get a nuclear device. but Israel has multiple Thermonuclear weapons in its arsenal, and has NEVER allowed the UN to verify this fact. So... Iran is a bit recalcitrant about allowing Nuclear Inspectors to visit its sites (but eventually allows this to happen) whereas Israel totally rejects ANY UN Inspectorate visits.

In reality, which ME Nation is the bigger threat to ME Stability?


#70    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:47 AM

View Postkeithisco, on 17 April 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Please, do not forget that the 1st Holocaust affected Gypsies, Homosexuals, Intellectuals, Polish, Communists, Dissenters etc in equal numbers to those whose only crime was to be Jewish. Lets not also forget that Jews are not a homogeneous people, they have their extremists just as The nation of Islam does.

Israel (Govt) is concerned that Iran MAY get a nuclear device. but Israel has multiple Thermonuclear weapons in its arsenal, and has NEVER allowed the UN to verify this fact. So... Iran is a bit recalcitrant about allowing Nuclear Inspectors to visit its sites (but eventually allows this to happen) whereas Israel totally rejects ANY UN Inspectorate visits.

In reality, which ME Nation is the bigger threat to ME Stability?
Everything you say is true but I add one very important detail you and most here, leave out.  This hatred that exists between Arab and Jew is generational.  Many believe the Bible to be a book of fairy tales but it chronicles this hatred and the evidence of it is visible in our lives every day.  Israel is a country of 8 million souls.  Yet the whole darned WORLD seems to be offended by them.  Most seem FAR less concerned with Assad's butchery in Syria or the radical Islamist tide rising in the M.E.  It always gets back to Israel.  I believe a day will come when the nations will allow an alliance to be formed for the purpose of destroying the Jewish state.  Instead of simply discounting anything a Zionist might say, perhaps one could consider the oddity of the world being willing to risk a thermonuclear exchange just to see Israel removed?  That is what will eventually happen if some accommodation is not made for Israel.  The argument about land is a ruse.  The Arab nations possess so much land they do not have the numbers to inhabit it properly but we are to believe that if Israel will only give up a little more of the precious small amount they have, then things will be fine and dandy.  Land is not the issue.  The existence in Palestine of a state of Jewish character is the issue.  And I will add that the proof of this came when the Palestinians took Gaza and began using it as a base to make war on Israeli civilians.  If Judea and Samaria are surrendered in a future "peace" deal the same will happen again and this time a general war will result that destabilizes the whole region.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#71    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

View Postand then, on 17 April 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

Truer words have never been spoken.  I admire your attachment to "fairness".  Good luck with that.

How is my view not fair?

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#72    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 17 April 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

How is my view not fair?
Sorry, I was being a little sarcastic there.  Many folks here use the concept of fairness when dealing with the issue of who gets nuclear weapons and it has been my contention that this question should be about much more than just "fairness".  These weapons cannot be unmade.  They will never be completely outlawed unless something even more effective comes about so we should do all we can, imo, to make it as difficult as possible for new countries to acquire them.  For example, do you think it's a good idea that North Korea has the nuclear bomb?  Eventually some country is going to acquire one and actually decide to USE it.  The world decided a very long time ago that it's better to try and get along or even slog it out toe to toe with conventional armies than to use these things again.  But the world is changing.  God help us if one gets used because we were trying to be "fair" to a dictator or a crazy religious regime.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#73    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

The last thing I think NK should have is nuclear weapons but that being said, I have a real problem with "the west" throwing its weight around telling other nations it can't have what we have. They're sovereign nations and we wouldn't like it if it was the other way round and NK had the weapons, we didn't and they threatened military action if we made them. My view is that nobody should have them or I have a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that in my life time (or even my childrens) someone is going to push that button and it's not about chess politics between countries here, we're talking about millions dying as a result of one of those things being launched. If we and the other powers were making efforts to disarm and then policed the rest of the world, well I'd be all for going into NK and taking their capability away by force if they wouldn't disarm peacefully.

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#74    GoSC

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

View Postand then, on 17 April 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Everything you say is true but I add one very important detail you and most here, leave out.  This hatred that exists between Arab and Jew is generational.  Many believe the Bible to be a book of fairy tales but it chronicles this hatred and the evidence of it is visible in our lives every day.  Israel is a country of 8 million souls.  Yet the whole darned WORLD seems to be offended by them.  Most seem FAR less concerned with Assad's butchery in Syria or the radical Islamist tide rising in the M.E.  It always gets back to Israel.  I believe a day will come when the nations will allow an alliance to be formed for the purpose of destroying the Jewish state.  Instead of simply discounting anything a Zionist might say, perhaps one could consider the oddity of the world being willing to risk a thermonuclear exchange just to see Israel removed?  That is what will eventually happen if some accommodation is not made for Israel.  The argument about land is a ruse.  The Arab nations possess so much land they do not have the numbers to inhabit it properly but we are to believe that if Israel will only give up a little more of the precious small amount they have, then things will be fine and dandy.  Land is not the issue.  The existence in Palestine of a state of Jewish character is the issue.  And I will add that the proof of this came when the Palestinians took Gaza and began using it as a base to make war on Israeli civilians.  If Judea and Samaria are surrendered in a future "peace" deal the same will happen again and this time a general war will result that destabilizes the whole region.

Watch Israel... they have a long history of border provocations with their neighboring Arab states. I mean it... watch Israel and watch them carefully.

According to the U.N., Israel launched more than 17 military raids in one form or another on Egyptian-held territory between 1949-1956, and a total of 31 attacks against Arab towns or military forces during these 7 years.

Way back in 1954-1955, there were attempts to conquer large tracts of land in the Jordanian-held West Bank and there were also plans to invade the Egyptian Sinai. All under the pretext of "reprisal" actions that actually began with Israel stirring border provocations.


In the summer of 1954 was the notorious "Lavon Affair". Where Israel actually infiltrated Egypt and performed a series of terrorist bombings in Cairo and Alexandria. These targets were specifically selected so as to appear to be the work of anti-Western Egyptian terrorists. The targets included British and U.S. information centers, consulates, movie theatres, and other public buildings. The reasons: to sabotage British-Egyptian talks on the Suez Canal and to sabotage U.S.-Egyptian weapons negotiations. Egypt convicted and executed 2 Israeli terrorist infiltrators in February 1955. The Defense Minister of Israel, Ben-Gurion pressed for a retaliatory strike against Egyptian military headquarters in Gaza. Israel blew up train depots and water pumping stations, killing 39 Egyptian troops and wounding 32 others.

Do you know what common geographic feature both Rome and Jerusalem share, and then?

Both cities are surrounded by 7 hills. Revelations 11:8.

Edited by B Jenkins, 17 April 2013 - 08:18 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#75    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:46 PM

It must really be exasperating to apparently hate anything or anyone so much and not be able to strike at it/them.  Not to argue BJ but if you are correct and God does not recognize these evil usurpers...why do they win every war?  Why do they exist against all odds stacked against them for millennia?  That should give rise to a question in your mind but it doesn't and I think it's because your hatred and bias won't allow it.  If your implication is that the current state of Israel is Babylon then... okay...  time will tell I guess.  If you are correct then someday maybe you will see Jerusalem over run by Muslim armies and the city sacked and pillaged.  You can live in hope, I guess.  Wow...

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




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