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Christians and oppression


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#76    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:18 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 17 April 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

What is suggested here is that "real" Christians cannot do anything against what is told in the bible. So, anybody who claims to be a Christian yet breaks any teaching of Christ, is not a Christian at all, they are something else. What exactly?  And further, it would seem that a vast number of people who have lived since Christ, and who thought they were Christians, are now presumably condemned to hell or whatever. All those who went on crusades or condoned the burning of witches, and that would be a very large number of people, none of them were Christian? Anybody, no matter who, who comitted any "sin" no matter how small, they are no longer Christians. How many popes were not Christian. Seems anybody wanting to be Christian has to rigidly conform to the views of one part of Christianity, or be forever cast into the void.

Oh I give up in the face of these blockheads. I never saw so much wriggling and squirming in my life. You "Christians" or whatever you are, are simply not worth my time. I leave. There, now you can make some blockheaded comment after mine and claim some hollow "victory". I really don't give a ....
Actually, some Christians may not agree with what their other half is up to, but secretly, if they are real Christians, they applaud the actions of trying to convert the heathens. Why let those poor b******* burn in hell, they are obligated to try and convert. The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#77    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 17 April 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Blood so hot I use it to make coffee. However, never underestimate the amount of boneheaded denial about this sort of thing. There will soon be screams of "But they aren't real Christians" etc etc ad nauseum

Who is a real Christian? That's the question.

The problem here is the socalled Old and New Testament.

I can respect the Christians who say something like: "I only follow and believe in the words of Jesus Christ as described in the NT".

But I do have some problems with those claiming to be "true" Christians and saying they follow the Bible (= OT+NT).

The "God" of the OT is nothing but an angry toddler suffering from tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, insanity and whatnot (think Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction").

Most often "Christian" abuse and violence is done in the name of the God as portrayed in the OT.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 April 2013 - 07:52 PM.


#78    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

Most often "Christian" abuse and violence is done in the name of the God as portrayed in the OT.
Yes, precisely, though I do not bother anymore to differentiate between them. I don't want to over do this, but somebody being shot in Babi Yar is not going to care if  their killer is a member of the Waffen SS or some low grade sonder Kommando, they just know they are being killed by some fascist. (likely to have been raised as a Christian) sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity for that. Not Jewish btw

And that is my final word here Posted Image

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 17 April 2013 - 07:56 PM.


#79    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 17 April 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Yes, precisely, though I do not bother anymore to differentiate between them. I don't want to over do this, but somebody being shot in Babi Yar is not going to care if  their killer is a member of the Waffen SS or some low grade sonder Kommando, they just know they are being killed by some fascist. (likely to have been raised as a Christian) sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity for that. Not Jewish btw

And that is my final word here Posted Image

Well, I have some not so final words here...

Those who say they are Christians should only follow the NT, for that is a record of what Jesus Christ is supposed to have taught his disciples and people he encountered.

Jesus' philosophy would NEVER have been included in the OT, had he lived in OT times.


#80    IamsSon

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 17 April 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

same old, same old. these excuses for your religion are very predictable and tiresome. tell it to the marines , not me.....
Yep, same old prejudice.  Refusing to answer is all the answer you need to give.


View PostSeeker79, on 17 April 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Not at all, but If I continue to let you use my name without defending it, it begs the question.
If you defended your name by phone or letter would that count?


View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

Who is a real Christian? That's the question.

The problem here is the socalled Old and New Testament.

I can respect the Christians who say something like: "I only follow and believe in the words of Jesus Christ as described in the NT".

But I do have some problems with those claiming to be "true" Christians and saying they follow the Bible (= OT+NT).

The "God" of the OT is nothing but an angry toddler suffering from tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, insanity and whatnot (think Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction").

Most often "Christian" abuse and violence is done in the name of the God as portrayed in the OT.

.
By your description of God's action in the OT, it's obvious you have not actually read it.  As a Christian, I am interested in studying all of the Bible and identifying what I should apply to my life.  As a student of the Bible, I realize that I am not of Jewish descent and am not interested in being a Jew, so the majority of the regulations laid out in the Old Testament, which are specifically directed to the Jews do not apply to me.  As a student of the Bible I also find an interesting thing that blows all of the "Well, Jesus was a nice, sweet, loving guy, but God in the Old Testament was a deranged lunatic" commentary to the sidelines where it belongs.  Jesus stated that He is "I Am."  and that no one has seen the Father, only Him, which means Jesus is the "God of the Old Testament."

Edited by IamsSon, 17 April 2013 - 08:13 PM.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#81    IamsSon

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

Well, I have some not so final words here...

Those who say they are Christians should only follow the NT, for that is a record of what Jesus Christ is supposed to have taught his disciples and people he encountered.

Jesus' philosophy would NEVER have been included in the OT, had he lived in OT times.
Jesus quoted the Old Testament, and also made specific claims about the law, so Christians need to study and UNDERSTAND the Old Testament and how it applies to them.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#82    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:26 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 17 April 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Jesus quoted the Old Testament, and also made specific claims about the law, so Christians need to study and UNDERSTAND the Old Testament and how it applies to them.

Jesus came from an old tradition, so he had to quote from that old tradition to make himself understandable.

But you will not find his interpretation of the ancient laws in the OT.

Yes, he wanted them to understand his interpretation of the OT, but that is not like saying, "do as you read in the OT".

In case you forgot: the NT mentions how Jesus was opposed by the 'religious establishment'.

He got nailed to a cross because they wanted him nailed to a cross.


#83    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 17 April 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

By your description of God's action in the OT, it's obvious you have not actually read it.  As a Christian, I am interested in studying all of the Bible and identifying what I should apply to my life.  As a student of the Bible, I realize that I am not of Jewish descent and am not interested in being a Jew, so the majority of the regulations laid out in the Old Testament, which are specifically directed to the Jews do not apply to me.  As a student of the Bible I also find an interesting thing that blows all of the "Well, Jesus was a nice, sweet, loving guy, but God in the Old Testament was a deranged lunatic" commentary to the sidelines where it belongs.  Jesus stated that He is "I Am."  and that no one has seen the Father, only Him, which means Jesus is the "God of the Old Testament."

I have copies of the Bible in 3 languages; Dutch, English, and Papiamento, and I read them all.

=

Jesus was about how HE interpreted the OT. His interpretation was a 180 degrees off from how the religious establishment thought it should be interpreted.

Yeah, I read the Bible.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 April 2013 - 08:47 PM.


#84    Abramelin

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:11 PM

I have a question for those who think that a Christian should be faithful to the OT.

If "God" asked you to slit the throat of your son as an act of loyalty to him, would you do it?

That is your OT "God".

Think "Abraham".


#85    IamsSon

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I have copies of the Bible in 3 languages; Dutch, English, and Papiamento, and I read them all.

=

Jesus was about how HE interpreted the OT. His interpretation was a 180 degrees off from how the religious establishment thought it should be interpreted.

Yeah, I read the Bible..
having copies in different languages does not actually mean you read it.

I agree that Jesus interpreted the Old Testament in a way significantly different from the religious leaders of His day.  He understood that the purpose of the laws, regulations, requirements for feasts and sacrifices and all that was intended to get a rational person to realize they could never reach God on their own, by their actions and instead turn to God in humility seeking mercy and grace.

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

I have a question for those who think that a Christian should be faithful to the OT.

If "God" asked you to slit the throat of your son as an act of loyalty to him, would you do it?

That is your OT "God".

Think "Abraham".
If God asked you to do something, anything, would you refuse?

Edited by IamsSon, 17 April 2013 - 09:27 PM.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#86    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 April 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:


The "God" of the OT is nothing but an angry toddler suffering from tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, insanity and whatnot (think Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction").
.

More like Denzel Washington in Training Day I think.  I agree 100% with the tantrums, hatred, prejudice, aggression, and a 10,000% with insanity.

Drunk with blood..
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Jewish gematria # 1162:
Who is like God
The epitome of evil

#87    Setton

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 17 April 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Actually, some Christians may not agree with what their other half is up to, but secretly, if they are real Christians, they applaud the actions of trying to convert the heathens. Why let those poor b******* burn in hell, they are obligated to try and convert. The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

Interesting that you get to decide what constitutes a 'real' Christian. Is that not up to them?

My interpretation would be that a Christian is, by definition, a follower of Christ (not the Bible, you'll note). So they should do as Christ advocates not the OT for one thing. Secondly, we know none of the Bible as it stands today was written by him or even people who knew him. And much was added or removed by the Church. So how do we know what is really following Christ and what is following a power hungry 4th century man in Nicaea or a man with a fondness for funny mushrooms (*cough* revelations *cough*)? And that's where every individual has to make their own decision on what the overriding message is. Personally, I think it's one of understanding, tolerance and compassion, not conversion but that's for each Christian to decide for him/her self.

View PostIamsSon, on 17 April 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

If God asked you to do something, anything, would you refuse?

If I thought it was an order only a deranged evil tyrant would give? Yep. If that's God, I think I'd prefer the company in Hell. Warmer too. But I'm with Abremilin on this one. The God Christ claims to be representing does not strike me as one who would give any such order.

Edited by Setton, 17 April 2013 - 10:18 PM.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#88    IamsSon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:29 AM

View PostSetton, on 17 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

If I thought it was an order only a deranged evil tyrant would give? Yep. If that's God, I think I'd prefer the company in Hell. Warmer too. But I'm with Abremilin on this one. The God Christ claims to be representing does not strike me as one who would give any such order.
Jesus does not claim to be representing any god, He claims to be God, and not just any God, but The God of the Old Testament Himself

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#89    Abramelin

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostIamsSon, on 17 April 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:



If God asked you to do something, anything, would you refuse?

So it's a YES, right? You would slit the throat of your son.


#90    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:05 AM

View PostSetton, on 17 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:



Interesting that you get to decide what constitutes a 'real' Christian. Is that not up to them?

My interpretation would be that a Christian is, by definition, a follower of Christ (not the Bible, you'll note). So they should do as Christ advocates not the OT for one thing. Secondly, we know none of the Bible as it stands today was written by him or even people who knew him. And much was added or removed by the Church. So how do we know what is really following Christ and what is following a power hungry 4th century man in Nicaea or a man with a fondness for funny mushrooms (*cough* revelations *cough*)? And that's where every individual has to make their own decision on what the overriding message is. Personally, I think it's one of understanding, tolerance and compassion, not conversion but that's for each Christian to decide for him/her self.



If I thought it was an order only a deranged evil tyrant would give? Yep. If that's God, I think I'd prefer the company in Hell. Warmer too. But I'm with Abremilin on this one. The God Christ claims to be representing does not strike me as one who would give any such order.
Are Christians not directed to spread their religon? If you are Christian are you not glad a heathen is saved from his unchristian ways? No. The primary premis of Christianity is that one can only be saved through Christ. Why would any thoughtful Christian not aplaud the conversion of non christian shamanic beliefs if indeed their beliefs are solid. Most Christians consider shaman satanic in origin. So I'll stick with my original statement. Any real Christian should be perfectly happy that missionaries invade aboriginal cultures with their religion, and it would not be me defining what a Christian is.

Edited by Seeker79, 18 April 2013 - 08:06 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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