43 replies to this topic

[Lilly]

Mnemonix, on 16 November 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

Does that mean my father's pet cockatoo that tried to kill me is evil?

More likely that he's threatened by you or jealous of you.

[Knight Of Shadows]

i doubt it ..there is extreme cases but it's not regular everyday you see a cheetah kill mother monkey and pet the baby monkey after
it happened but is it common ? nope extremely rare and circumstances involved much
animals rely on instinct mostly some times their behavior differ and becomes complex
but it wouldn't rise to level or morals
a dog would defend his master even if that master was a wicked evil man
does that make a dog evil ? or does that make the dog loyal and good on morals for standing up for his master ?
or is it because the dog became accustomed to certain enviorment involving this master ?

personally i don't think animals are intelligent enough to make them considered moral

[redhen]

Knight Of Shadows, on 16 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

animals rely on instinct mostly some times their behavior differ and becomes complex but it wouldn't rise to level or morals

Morality includes not just the rare example of ultimate altruism, but also the everyday norms that guide societies. Chimps exhibit behaviours that mirror that of humans. I'm thinking of things like violating a norm for chimp culture, expressions of shame/guilt and punishment by the group for breaking these norms.

What makes humans a special case? Until 12,000 years ago we shared the planet with Homo floresiensis, aka the hobbit. 27,000 years ago Neanderthals still walked the earth. Did these hominids have "human morality"? If so, what about homo erectus? Where do you draw the line? What is the criteria for ascertaining morality?

Quote

personally i don't think animals are intelligent enough to make them considered moral

Intelligence is the criteria? So those poor unfortunate humans that rate low on the IQ scale are amoral?

There are several videos on the UM forums that show crows exhibiting very intelligent behaviour. Some videos show these birds figuring out Archimedes principle. There are people who can't figure this out. Yet they know when they violate societal norms and they express these emotions (shame, guilt) the same way other non-human apes would.

[jbondo]

Do animals exhibit morality?

Well, probably the conservative ones do.

[David Thomson]

Morality is those actions and behaviors that lead to the good health and well being of individuals and communities.  It does not matter that the individual is human, cat, dog, or any other living thing.  

The concepts of good and bad are human ideas.  However, health and well-being are enjoyed and appreciated by all living things.  

We humans need to recognize the right of all living things to live healthy and with well-being.

[Tommy13]

It's called love. An immeasurable current, that can only be felt. Some animals have this prominent in there nature, others need to be taught it, with a stick(if needed) hehehehe.

[Knight Of Shadows]

redhen, on 16 November 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Morality includes not just the rare example of ultimate altruism, but also the everyday norms that guide societies. Chimps exhibit behaviours that mirror that of humans. I'm thinking of things like violating a norm for chimp culture, expressions of shame/guilt and punishment by the group for breaking these norms.

What makes humans a special case? Until 12,000 years ago we shared the planet with Homo floresiensis, aka the hobbit. 27,000 years ago Neanderthals still walked the earth. Did these hominids have "human morality"? If so, what about homo erectus? Where do you draw the line? What is the criteria for ascertaining morality?



Intelligence is the criteria? So those poor unfortunate humans that rate low on the IQ scale are amoral?

There are several videos on the UM forums that show crows exhibiting very intelligent behaviour. Some videos show these birds figuring out Archimedes principle. There are people who can't figure this out. Yet they know when they violate societal norms and they express these emotions (shame, guilt) the same way other non-human apes would.

morals is not only expressed toward the same speices
you ever seen group of crows attacking a man for beating a dog or cat ?
now have you ever seen a man/woman stopping a person from doing that ?
i don't see cows and sheeps making safe zones for endangered babies ummm do you ?  

it's not that complicated animals that work in groups .. such as crows and the like
it's normal for them to have rules . punishment and laws of their own
is that what morals stand for ?

i know some animals are intellgient they're just not intelligant enough to define " right and wrong "
when a " smart " crow peck your eye while you're playing with it you'd double question that moral or intelligence they have
the animals intelligence is enough for them to adopt and survive
and crows happen to live among people , houses , machines they learned to use them to their advantages

morals require intelligence but that doesn't mean every intelliegant human is moral
but that's because they " choose " not to

[zenfahr]

I believe it..... I know it sounds bad, but here is my story.... I had this great dog for ten plus years, in that time we had two children. ( wife and I had the kids not me and my dog you sick people)  My dog loved these kids.  As a joke (I knew she would never do what I asked) I would say to her "get the babies, get em, bite em!!"  and she would look at me with eyes like "are you serious? whatever!!"  and would whine at me to stop, and when I would not she would come over and bite me instead.  No one was allow to hurt her babies!  She was a good dog, and I miss her.

[King Fluffs]

My dogs a lovely hound.
Sleeps next to me every night.

[IamLegend]

All mamals have the capacity to love.

[Coffey]

Armchair Educated, on 15 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

did you know that the baboon beats its females to keep them loyal and from straying? the black widow female eats the male after copulation? A lion when taking over a pride will kill all the cubs and then have its own with all the females of the group.  rats will eat there young when hungry. theres also a fish that can enter the uthera when you pee in a river and then inserts spikes into you to stay there. interesting but not moral, animals can be affectionate but cant aspire to be greater than they are.

Dolphins have helped guide whales from being beached. Dolphins have saved humans from sharks. Dogs have saved humans in many different ways and other animals even including cats. There is a video of a cheetah that kills a female baboon, it then realises the female baboon had a baby clinging to it. The cheetah takes the baby up a tree and cuddles it to try and keep it warm until it it dies. (it does not kill it) There is another video of a hippo trying to save an impala from a crocadile. The hippo fails, but tries to hold the impalas head up. When it realises there is no hope left, it leaves the impala. Now what is unique in this case is that hippos will normally eat other animals, they certiantly would not waste, yet this hippo leaves the body? why?!


Yes you can find the harshness in nature, sadly nature is harsh and these animals still have to survive. But to say they have no morals for the reasons you suggest is down right ingorant. They can be more loyal and love far more than some humans. In fact it is even more disgusting when humans do horrible things because they don't need to for survival and should know better. So who are we to judge?! You speak like you are above animals, talking about them as though they are below you. Funny a dog would never think you are below it. Says a lot.


My evidence:

Edited by Coffey, 16 November 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Cybele]

Armchair Educated, on 15 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

did you know that the baboon beats its females to keep them loyal and from straying? the black widow female eats the male after copulation? A lion when taking over a pride will kill all the cubs and then have its own with all the females of the group.  rats will eat there young when hungry. theres also a fish that can enter the uthera when you pee in a river and then inserts spikes into you to stay there. interesting but not moral, animals can be affectionate but cant aspire to be greater than they are.

I think one needs to distinguish between behaviors that we humans, in our cultures, deem ethically acceptable, verus moral systems. Just because we don't find animal behavior to always be "moral" to our sensibilities does not mean they don't have any sort of basic moral systems and social rules to survive in a group. They may just be different from our own.

Take your example with lions. My understanding is that this is generally done when a male conquers the pride of a rival. He kills the cubs of his former (now exiled or dead) rival to ensure his genetic dominance. This may not necessarily harm the ability of the new pride to work together if the new male is effective in making his dominance known.

With the baboons, it's the same idea. If beating females into submission ensures better social cohesion and therefore survival, it may be selected for. It's sometimes easy to forget that this type of behavior was considered ethical in some human societies generations ago (and still is in some parts of the world).

Edited by Cybele, 16 November 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[woopypooky]

God knows why it took them so long to realise this.

[IamLegend]

Coffey, on 16 November 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Dolphins have helped guide whales from being beached. Dolphins have saved humans from sharks. Dogs have saved humans in many different ways and other animals even including cats. There is a video of a cheetah that kills a female baboon, it then realises the female baboon had a baby clinging to it. The cheetah takes the baby up a tree and cuddles it to try and keep it warm until it it dies. (it does not kill it) There is another video of a hippo trying to save an impala from a crocadile. The hippo fails, but tries to hold the impalas head up. When it realises there is no hope left, it leaves the impala. Now what is unique in this case is that hippos will normally eat other animals, they certiantly would not waste, yet this hippo leaves the body? why?!


Yes you can find the harshness in nature, sadly nature is harsh and these animals still have to survive. But to say they have no morals for the reasons you suggest is down right ingorant. They can be more loyal and love far more than some humans. In fact it is even more disgusting when humans do horrible things because they don't need to for survival and should know better. So who are we to judge?! You speak like you are above animals, talking about them as though they are below you. Funny a dog would never think you are below it. Says a lot.


My evidence:

Here's some more.

https://www.youtube....feature=related

https://www.youtube....h?v=RKZYpHmUayg

[jaguarsky]

Many years ago I worked at a riding stable. There was in residence there an very beautiful paint mare. She was glorious to look at but had the worst attitude of any horse in the barn. To say she was spirited was far off the mark. She was a big mean b****.

The man who owned her was an accomplished rider who enjoyed the challenge of such a horse. Now, this man had a girl friend who suffered from muscular dystrophy. She could not walk and her range of movement was very limited. He would bring his GF to the stable, set her on his beautiful, dangerous horse, (bareback, the GF could not sit in the saddle comfortably) the horse would walk around as delicately and carefully as if she were walking on ice. He would mount one of his other horses and they would spend an hour or two on the horses just walking leisurely around the farm.

That horse made a conscious choice to be gentle with that woman. That is morality. To call it anything else is disingenuous.