4019 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

By ploughing a fallow field, you begin the process of life, as a seed is then planted in the fertile soil, which then grows up. These concepts go through to people.

[Abramelin]

Let's assume that what you suggested earlier is true, and that OD comes from ORD, which (among other things that are not relevant here) means 'spear'. which would then mean it was Wralda's 'spear' entering (or plowing) the 3 earth mothers. Spear would be nothing but his pecker of course.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ord

But till how long did the Frisians use ORD before they shortened it into OD?

From the next it should be clear that that must have been up to at least a couple of centuries after 800 AD:


Old Frisian Law

The earliest Old Frisian law is known as the Lex Frisionum.   It was written around 800 A.D. in Latin at the behest of the emperor Charlemagne.  There are also several other sets of laws that were written somewhat later.  These are mostly in Old Frisian.  A good introduction to Old Frisian Law, if you can read Dutch, is N.E. Algra, Oudfries Recht, 800-1256 (Ljouwert: Fryske Akademy, 2000).   Unfortunately, most old Frisian law is available only in Dutch or German translation, not in English.  The most important exception is the Skeltariucht, parts of which are presented below.



II. Thit is riucht thet thi fria Fresa ni thor fira hereferd fara, thur ban ni thur bod, than mittha ebba wt and mittha flode up, truch tha ned, thet hi thenne ower alle degan wera skel with thenne salta se and with thenne wilda witsing, mith fif wepnem, mith spada and mith forka, mith skelde and mith swerde and mith etkeres orde [thur thet, thet hi thenne ower waria skel], bi enre liudwerthene, ther hit him keth worde mith boda iefta mith bakne.  Iefta sexasum swera, thet hit him mith boda ni mith bakne keth ni worde.

Translation:  

This is the law: the free Frisian need make no further foray, whether under proclamation or order, than out with the ebb and back with the flood; because he needs must guard the shore, day in, day out, against the salt sea and the wild viking with five weapons: with spade and with fork, with shield and with sword, and with spear's point.  (And this he must do) on pain of one wergeld(*), whenever notice is given him by messenger or by beacon, or else swear with five compurgators that such notice was not given him.

http://www.languagea...rg/SKELTANA.HTM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild

Old Skeltariucht: law book containing Old West Frisian legal stipulations prescribing the duties of the skelta (comp. Dutch ‘schout’ = bailiff)

http://www.tresoar.n...gen.css&lang=en

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 October 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 10 October 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Let's assume that what you suggested earlier is true, and that OD comes from ORD, which (among other things that are not relevant here) means 'spear'. which would then mean it was Wralda's 'spear' entering (or plowing) the 3 earth mothers. Spear would be nothing but his pecker of course.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ord

But till how long did the Frisians use ORD before they shortened it into OD?

From the next it should be clear that that must have been up to at least a couple of centuries after 800 AD:






II. Thit is riucht thet thi fria Fresa ni thor fira hereferd fara, thur ban ni thur bod, than mittha ebba wt and mittha flode up, truch tha ned, thet hi thenne ower alle degan wera skel with thenne salta se and with thenne wilda witsing, mith fif wepnem, mith spada and mith forka, mith skelde and mith swerde and mith etkeres orde [thur thet, thet hi thenne ower waria skel], bi enre liudwerthene, ther hit him keth worde mith boda iefta mith bakne.  Iefta sexasum swera, thet hit him mith boda ni mith bakne keth ni worde.

Translation:  

This is the law: the free Frisian need make no further foray, whether under proclamation or order, than out with the ebb and back with the flood; because he needs must guard the shore, day in, day out, against the salt sea and the wild viking with five weapons: with spade and with fork, with shield and with sword, and with spear's point.  (And this he must do) on pain of one wergeld(*), whenever notice is given him by messenger or by beacon, or else swear with five compurgators that such notice was not given him.

(snip)
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The orde would be the spear POINT. It's a dot.
I don't know, you're saying they shortened stuff all the time. to ra - how long till they shortened to hjara into that? Who knows. Maybe OD came first.

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 October 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[Abramelin]

Ah yes, etkeres orde, spear's point:

et-gê-r* 5, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Speer; ne. spear (N.); Hw.: vgl. an. atgeirr, ae.
Útgõr, ahd. azgÐr; Q.: H, E, W; E.: germ. *atgaiza-, *atgaizaz, *atigaiza-,
*atigaizaz, st. M. (a), Speer; s. idg. *haiso-, Sb., Stecken (M.), Spieß (M.) (1),
Speer, Pokorny.

or-d 14, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Spitze, Ort, Stelle, Anfang; ne. point (N.), place
(N.); ÜG.: lat. lancea WE; Vw.: s. -ling; Hw.: vgl. got. *uzds, an. oddr, ae. ord, as.
ord*, ahd. ort (1); Q.: H, E, W, R, WE; E.: s. germ. *uzda-, *uzdaz, st. M. (a),
Spitze; vgl. idg. *øes- (4), V., stechen?, Pokorny 1172; idg. *dhÐ- (2), *dheh1-, V.,
setzen, stellen, legen, Pokorny 235; W.: nfries. oerde; W.: nnordfries. od; L.: Hh.

OK, so it is "Wralda's point plowed inside them, and...."

Hettema also mentions atkers and etekeris for spear's.

http://images.tresoa...heWetten_21.pdf

But he also uses ORDE for point, not OD.

So it still is a relative recent word.

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 October 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 10 October 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Ah yes, etkeres orde, spearpoint:

et-gê-r* 5, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Speer; ne. spear (N.); Hw.: vgl. an. atgeirr, ae.
Útgõr, ahd. azgÐr; Q.: H, E, W; E.: germ. *atgaiza-, *atgaizaz, *atigaiza-,
*atigaizaz, st. M. (a), Speer; s. idg. *haiso-, Sb., Stecken (M.), Spieß (M.) (1),
Speer, Pokorny.

or-d 14, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Spitze, Ort, Stelle, Anfang; ne. point (N.), place
(N.); ÜG.: lat. lancea WE; Vw.: s. -ling; Hw.: vgl. got. *uzds, an. oddr, ae. ord, as.
ord*, ahd. ort (1); Q.: H, E, W, R, WE; E.: s. germ. *uzda-, *uzdaz, st. M. (a),
Spitze; vgl. idg. *øes- (4), V., stechen?, Pokorny 1172; idg. *dhÐ- (2), *dheh1-, V.,
setzen, stellen, legen, Pokorny 235; W.: nfries. oerde; W.: nnordfries. od; L.: Hh.

OK, so it is "Wralda's point plowed inside them, and...."

Hettema also mentions atkers and etekeris for spear.

http://images.tresoa...heWetten_21.pdf

OK, now see anfang - point of origin/beginning or a genesis, a spark, a seed of life.
Anfang is on the Jul wheel.
Hwat hyr boppa sta^et send thi têkna fon tha^et jol. Tha^et is tha^et forma sinnebild Wr.aldas, âk fon t-anfang jeftha-t bijin, wêrut tid kêm
What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul—that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda, also of the origin or beginning from which Time is derived;

Time is derived from the anfang, the point (of origin) - the OD

Edit: (I also just noticed that i has no dot but the j on the t'bijin wheel has a dot) j might hold an earlier form of what od is...

Wralda's OD - not literally pointed object but point, dot, seed - I recall the Bok Saga guy saying the letter i was a penis and sperm, the sperm part - the dot. But also what you say, rod, from OD, could be true and the whole part is combined - i. Always these ancient Nordic gods getting around with big rods - fertility cultures. Or holding lances, which might have been more appropriate to represent this in some cultures, maybe Greece.

This is the root of old fertility cults, the lightening impregnates the earth during thunderstorms. The spark from the sky reaches down to the earth - this concept I am seeing in the same way, to whatever it is Frya Finda and Lyda truly represent - which may be connected with time.

trad - plow/plough - the plough enters the ground and impregnates it with seed - so some form of this is in the word trad I think. Ottema has hatred found it's way among them. Brush off hatred, he next saying 'found its way' - again, a reference to pathway, even enter, tread - plow - if you plow into someone in a car accident you basically bang into them straight on and really hard...

This is how I'm seeing these words, in concept form of how this type of birth would occur - like Virgin births, conception by God - some spark of God enters them.

I was just brushing up on Frya/Frigga and what she represents in relation to it all - she sits at her spinning wheel - which is Yule itself - the wheel, and spins the fates of mankind. She gives birth at the Winter Solstice as the OLB says - to a new Sun/son Baldr, but twins is not mentioned for her, but what about Leto, light? she could be some form of Frya, who is usually associated with light, gold etc. Anyway thats for another time.
http://www.goddessgi...er-solstice.htm

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 October 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 10 October 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

The orde would be the spear POINT. It's a dot.
I don't know, you're saying they shortened stuff all the time. to ra - how long till they shortened to hjara into that? Who knows. Maybe OD came first.

I don't think it's very likely the change went from OD to ORD. I'm, pretty sure it must have went the other way round.

So either the OLB OD doesn't mean 'point' at all, or it does mean 'point', and then it is a rather recent thing (after, say, the 11th century).

[Abramelin]

I would not use the Bok Saga in this discussion, lol.

And the -i- with dot is, like I posted a couple of days ago, also a rather recent invention.


The tittle first appeared in Latin manuscripts in the 11th century, to distinguish the letter i from strokes of nearby letters. Although originally a larger mark, it was reduced to a dot when Roman-style typefaces were introduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tittle

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 October 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 10 October 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I don't think it's very likely the change went from OD to ORD. I'm, pretty sure it must have went the other way round.

So either the OLB OD doesn't mean 'point' at all, or it does mean 'point', and then it is a rather recent thing (after, say, the 11th century).

Hebrew dot in same is called YOD. These words and concepts are old. Did you catch my edit? - look at the Juul wheels, the i has no dot, but the j has.
Goodnight for now, need more sleep lol.

[Abramelin]

The OLB script has an -l- without dot (or tittle), and one with a dot, like a modern -i-

The first one is an -i-
The second one is a -j- .

And the Dutch/Frisian -j- is like the English -y- in 'yes'.

(EDIT: your link is not working)

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Edited by Abramelin, 10 October 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 10 October 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

The OLB script has an -l- without dot (or tittle), and one with a dot, like a modern -i-

The first one is an -i-
The second one is a -j- .

And the Dutch/Frisian -j- is like the English -y- in 'yes'.

(EDIT: your link is not working)

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Yes, thats right, I know that. In t'bijin. That's what I was pointing out - j might hold a more original form of what the dot represents, rather than i.

[The Puzzler]

J is the tenth letter in the ISO basic Latin alphabet. Its normal name in English is jay /ˈdʒeɪ/ or jy /ˈdʒaɪ/;^[1][2] when used for the y sound, it may be called yod (/ˈjɒd/ or /ˈjoʊd/).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J

But it doesn't seem any earlier than i according to Wiki, not that it matters now anyway, the j is still called yod, like the dot on the i - and it was a sideline, so not important.

[The Puzzler]

od...


http://en.wikipedia....³n_de_Adán.jpg

[Abramelin]

I understand OD to be a bit more than a mere 'touching of fingers', lol.

[Abramelin]

Hey, they found a 'Finda' in Rome.... or did they?

DNA Testing On 2,000-Year-Old Bones in Italy Reveal East Asian Ancestry

ScienceDaily (Feb. 2, 2010) — Researchers excavating an ancient Roman cemetery made a surprising discovery when they extracted ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from one of the skeletons buried at the site: the 2,000-year-old bones revealed a maternal East Asian ancestry.

"These preliminary isotopic and mtDNA data provide tantalizing evidence that some of the people who lived and died at Vagnari were foreigners, and that they may have come to Vagnari from beyond the borders of the Roman Empire," says Prowse. "This research addresses broader issues relating to globalization, human mobility, identity, and diversity in Roman Italy."

http://www.scienceda...00201171756.htm

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 11 October 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I understand OD to be a bit more than a mere 'touching of fingers', lol.

I don't think you got the 'point'.