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The Serer (West Africa) and Ancient Egyptians


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#46    Abramelin

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:31 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 13 September 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Posted Image


.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............................



The Lhote Hoax

Lhote published in his book two paintings which had an unmistakable ancient egyptian influence, yet were strangely different. This caused quite a stir in scholarly circles, as it seemed like unrefutable proof of contact between the Tassili and Ancient Egypt. Eventually it emerged, that the paintings were done by one of the playful artists of the Lhote team, who was familiar with the ancient egyptian style. The hoax misled Lhote himself, who argued very authentically about this cultural link in his book, and probably only became aware that he was set up much later (The pictures were reproduced up to the early seventies editions of his book). By now the paintings have been discretely erased from Jabbaren and Aurenghet, and the Touareg guides shake their head if the photos are shown, having never seen them.

http://www.fjexpedit...et/rockart.html


#47    The Puzzler

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:53 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 September 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............................



The Lhote Hoax

Lhote published in his book two paintings which had an unmistakable ancient egyptian influence, yet were strangely different. This caused quite a stir in scholarly circles, as it seemed like unrefutable proof of contact between the Tassili and Ancient Egypt. Eventually it emerged, that the paintings were done by one of the playful artists of the Lhote team, who was familiar with the ancient egyptian style. The hoax misled Lhote himself, who argued very authentically about this cultural link in his book, and probably only became aware that he was set up much later (The pictures were reproduced up to the early seventies editions of his book). By now the paintings have been discretely erased from Jabbaren and Aurenghet, and the Touareg guides shake their head if the photos are shown, having never seen them.

http://www.fjexpedit...et/rockart.html

Really? I know this picture and the other one, with exposed breast dress picture, that's interesting if so.
Just going through some of your informative posts, have little time to reply though.

Edited by The Puzzler, 14 September 2012 - 02:18 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#48    Abramelin

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:30 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 14 September 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Really? I know this picture and the other one, with exposed breast dress picture, that's interesting if so.
Just going through some of your informative posts, have little time to reply though.

I found some other sites telling the same thing about Lhote, a guy whose own hands weren't that clean either:



Lhote himself identified an Egyptian dimension, though he was at pains to draw a clear outline how Egypt would slot into the Tassili rock paintings.

He published in his book two paintings which had an unmistakable ancient Egyptian character. Furthermore, they were “out of place art” and did not fit in with the other paintings that he had found. His discovery caused commotion in scholarly circles, as it seemed irrefutable proof of contact between the Tassili and Ancient Egypt. The question was how. Eventually, it emerged that the paintings were done by one member of Lhote’s team, who played a successful prank on Lhote. The pictures were reproduced up to the early 1970s in editions of his book, before being removed from successive reprints. Today, the paintings have been discretely erased from Jabbaren and Aurenghet, and the Touareg guides shake their head if the photos are shown, having never seen them. Of course, some will argue that this is part of an archaeological cover-up, whereby one member of his team was forced to lie, whereby the establishment later removed the paintings from the cliffs to remove this “Egyptian connection”.

“If at one stage Egyptian (and maybe also Mycenaean) influence can be observed, the most archaic of the Tassili pictures belong to a school unknown up to now and one that apparently was of local origin”, Lhote concluded.

http://www.philipcop...om/tassili.html


Since certified frauds were confessed by guilty
members of Lhote's team I've become leary of
meticulously executed "Saharan rock art" that's
unverified by photo.


http://www.egyptsear...c;f=15;t=004397



An example of how the fakes influenced historical anthropology.

Posted Image
Jabbaren: 'Antinea': Post-Bovidian Period with Egyptian Influence


Other than touch ups to the breast, thigh, and buttocks
the above reworking is the same as in Lhote's book.


Lhote's commentary:

This magnificent female figure was found in the so-called
'Aard-Vark' shelter at Jabbaren where it is situated in the least
accessible part of the grotto and screened from outside by a
huge rock. The shelter had been occupied (previously to the
execution of the paintings) by Bovidians, who left here remains
of their repasts and a number of artifacts. The great picture
covers, to the extreme right, a little round-headed figure, while
a Bovidian personage in red ochre seems to have been em-
bodied in the head-dress of 'Antinea'. The profile is typically
'European' -- Greek one might almost say. It is in marked
contrast with the coarse faces of the 'magistrates' (No. 30)
and of the women of the Upper Jabbaren (List of Styles No. 1)
which, nevertheless, belong to the same art-phase and are all
executed in similar colors. The head-dress seems to indicate
an important personage. Here, once more, we see the head-
band or high cap which is characteristic of this school of
painting, but the upper part of the head-dress is different and
appears to contain an attribute whose form is not unlike that
of the Egyptian pshent. The hand seems to be covered by a frill
or finge.


http://www.egyptsear...c;f=15;t=004397



Moreover, Lhote not only washed and publicly encouraged the washing of the paintings, thus accelerating their destruction, but also reportedly looted surface and other artefacts in huge quantities from an unknown number of sites. It has been said by people who worked with him that what he did not take for the Musée de l’Homme in Paris and the Bardo Museum in Algiers went into his private collection, and that his private collection surpassed those of both museums.11 Indeed, Lhote undertook perhaps as many as a hundred excavations from which he is said to have removed (looted) artefacts without making any public record of them. Lhote also used his influence to stop other academics and scientists visiting the region, thus preventing further research (and, of course, the discovery of his misdeeds). In short, Lhote was the major contributor to the near sterilisation of the archaeological record of one of the world’s most important archaeological sites and the main cause of much of the subsequent damage to the remaining art through actions such as washing.

http://www.egyptsear...c;f=15;t=004397

Well, read that whole webpage.


#49    Abramelin

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:42 PM

Henri Lhote (1903–1991) was a French author, explorer, ethnographer, and "expert on prehistoric cave art" who described and is credited for the discovery of "important cave paintings" in an "assembly of 800 or more magnificent works of primitive art...in a virtually inaccessible region on the edge of the Sahara desert" Lhote was an early ancient astronaut theorist and considered the prehistoric art as evidence of paleocontact.

-

The popular press gave much attention to Lhote's hypothesis of a prehistoric close encounter and it was later incorporated into the '"sensationalist claims" made by Erich von Däniken that ancient extraterrestrial astronauts visited prehistoric Earth.

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The value of Lhote's scholarship was also challenged by The Journal of North African Studies, an academic journal affiliated with the University of East Anglia:

Following a highly publicised expedition in the 1950s, the Tassili-n-Ajjer mountains of the Central Sahara (Algeria) were presented to the world as 'the greatest museum of prehistoric art in the whole world'. Many of the claims of the expedition's leader, Henri Lhote, were misleading, a number of the paintings were faked, and the copying process was fraught with errors. The 'discovery' can only be understood within the political and cultural context of the time, namely the Algerian Revolution, France's attempt to partition Algeria, and the prevailing views of the Abbé Breuil, the arch-advocate of foreign influence in African rock art. The expedition's methods caused extensive damage to the rock art while the accompanying looting of cultural objects effectively sterilized the archaeological landscape. Any restitution process must necessarily include a full recognition of what was done and the inappropriateness of the values.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Henri_Lhote


So, it appears advisable to stick to photos of Saharan rock art, and not use drawn copies because many sites will have copied the drawings made by this Lhote.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 September 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#50    SSilhouette

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:40 AM

I still think you would've made a great teacher.  There's still time!


#51    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:30 AM

I am not teaching, I am learning.


#52    SSilhouette

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:10 PM

And sharing your learning with others is teaching.  Otherwise you'd just keep it all in your head and not share it, no?  Great work BTW.  You have always been good at sharing what you've learned with others.


#53    Abramelin

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:59 PM

I share what I find.

I share with other people what I find interesting in the hope they may add something I did not know about. Not everything is to be found on the internet.

Some people think some topic is not interesting enough to delve in deeper or to be bothered with, and then I show them they are wrong.

It's about being tenacious. It's about being an info-junkie, lol.

I love history, more than anything else. OK, except p***y.

OK, now stop asskissing, and contribute something on topic, please

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 September 2012 - 10:01 PM.


#54    SSilhouette

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:17 AM

Quote

Some people think some topic is not interesting enough to delve in deeper or to be bothered with, and then I show them they are wrong.

It's about being tenacious. It's about being an info-junkie, lol.

hmmm  yes, I recently was delving deeper into a topic, tenaciously.  I couldn't agree more.


#55    The Puzzler

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:01 AM

I'm going for Medusa being a Serer priestess of the Fangool. Athena's temple were sanctuaries for the snakes and Medusa was stationed in one in Western Africa/Libya before the Sahara had completely dried up. Hermes is the entwined snakes, he is the one who talks to God through them, the speaking snakes, they are how they connected with God - the Minoan Snake Goddess is imo, Athena and she is holding the snakes as receptors to get the message from the Gods. Hermes is the embodiment of what the snake represents, the Fangool - he is for communication, travel, writing, sacred texts, laws and knowledge. I'd even say these people were in Greece and the cult of Apollo wiped it out of Greece, Athenians kept much of it through their continued worship of Athena and the Gorgon and snake on her Aegis shows her ancient connection to it all - especially with Medusa herself having been in Athena's temple, while still in 'Libya' as where Perseus found her.

Just my thought for the morning.

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#56    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:59 PM

http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/akhena.pdf

I just put this up since we were discussing cultural exchanges of ancient egyptians.I found the article interesting in respect to Akhenaten and his new god Aton and the Mittani's.


#57    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:16 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 21 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/akhena.pdf

I just put this up since we were discussing cultural exchanges of ancient egyptians.I found the article interesting in respect to Akhenaten and his new god Aton and the Mittani's.

There's some odd stories where Dionysus and Heracles have been to India in some war. Like the Aryans are Libyan/Ethiopian/Egyptians... since Herodotus mentions the Indians look pretty much like Ethiopians, it's food for though imo. I haven't read your whole link yet but found the beginning interesting enough.


Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 2. 33 (trans. Conybeare) (Greek biography C1st to 2nd A.D.) :
"It is related, anyhow, that Herakles of Egypt and Dionysos after they had overrun the Indian people with their arms, constructed engines of war, and tried to take the place by assault; but the sages [Brahmans], instead of taking the field against them, lay quiet and passive, as it seemed to the enemy; but as soon as the latter approached they were driven off by rockets of fire and thunderbolts which were hurled obliquely from above and fell upon their armour."

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 2. 6-10 :
"Now the Hellenes disagree with the Indians, and the Indians among themselves, concerning this Dionysos [the wine-god worshipped in India]. For we declare that the Theban Dionysos made an expedition to India in the role of soldier and reveller, and we base our arguments, among other things, on the offering at Delphoi, which is preserved in the treasuries there. And it is a disc of Indian silver bearing the inscription: ‘Dionysos the son of Semele and of Zeus, from the men of India to the Apollon of Delphoi.’"

Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 3. 13 :
"Now the hill [in India] the summit of which is inhabited by the sages [Brahmans] is, according to the account of our travellers, of about the same height as the Akropolis of Athens; and it rises: straight up from the plain, though its natural position equally secures it from attack for the rock surrounds it on all sides. On many parts of this rock you see traces of cloven feet and outlines of beards and of faces, and here and there impressions of backs as of persons who had slipt - and rolled down. For they say that Dionysos, when he was trying to storm the place together with Herakles, ordered the Panes to attack it, thinking that they would be strong enough to take it by assault; but they were thunderstruck by the sages and fell one, one way, and another, another; and the rocks as it were took the print of the various postures in which they fell and failed."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 131 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"When Liber [Dionysos] was leading his army into India, he gave the authority over his Theban kingdom to his nurse Nysus [Seilenos] until he should come back. But after Liber returned from there, Nysus was unwilling to yield the kingdom."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 191 :
"At the time when Father Liber [Dionysos] was leading his army into India, Silenus wandered away; Midas entertained him generously, and gave him a guide to conduct him to Liber’s [Dionysos’] company."
Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 20 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"You [Dionysos] hold in thrall the Orient, even those remotest lands where Ganges waters dusky India."

Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 605 ff :
"[Dionysos] conqueror of India."

http://www.theoi.com...ysosMyths3.html

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#58    kmt_sesh

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:04 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 22 September 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

There's some odd stories where Dionysus and Heracles have been to India in some war. Like the Aryans are Libyan/Ethiopian/Egyptians... since Herodotus mentions the Indians look pretty much like Ethiopians, it's food for though imo. I haven't read your whole link yet but found the beginning interesting enough.

...

I haven't been part of this discussion but there's something I'd like to ask you, as the resident expert on Greek mythology.

It's clear the Greeks prior to the time of Alexander the Great had little to no real understanding of the modern country of India. To them India was basically parts of eastern Pakistan and the Indus Valley. Few if any Greeks had ventured that far beyond Asia Minor prior to Alexander.

I've read many times that the myths of Dionysus and Heracles pertaining to India did not exist, again, prior to the time of Alexander. I'm well versed in the campaigns and movements of Alexander and his army, but generally not in Greek myth. It's possible Alexander brought Dionysus to India because of his ongoing guilt over having sacked and destroyed Thebes (a major cult center of Dionysus), before his war against Persia. He turned to the elevation and veneration of this god to assuage his guilt. In a similar vein Alexander is also responsible for Heracles' exploits in India because he believed he was a direct descendant of Heracles (as well as Achilles).

So I was wondering (in my usual tedious and roundabout way), are you aware of any myths of Dionysus and Heracles that can be solidly tied to India before Alexander dragged his army all the way there?

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#59    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:50 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 22 September 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

I haven't been part of this discussion but there's something I'd like to ask you, as the resident expert on Greek mythology.

It's clear the Greeks prior to the time of Alexander the Great had little to no real understanding of the modern country of India. To them India was basically parts of eastern Pakistan and the Indus Valley. Few if any Greeks had ventured that far beyond Asia Minor prior to Alexander.

I've read many times that the myths of Dionysus and Heracles pertaining to India did not exist, again, prior to the time of Alexander. I'm well versed in the campaigns and movements of Alexander and his army, but generally not in Greek myth. It's possible Alexander brought Dionysus to India because of his ongoing guilt over having sacked and destroyed Thebes (a major cult center of Dionysus), before his war against Persia. He turned to the elevation and veneration of this god to assuage his guilt. In a similar vein Alexander is also responsible for Heracles' exploits in India because he believed he was a direct descendant of Heracles (as well as Achilles).

So I was wondering (in my usual tedious and roundabout way), are you aware of any myths of Dionysus and Heracles that can be solidly tied to India before Alexander dragged his army all the way there?
No, there is none as far as I know. I think what you suggest is very possible actually. Obviously Alexander is not Dionysus but in those stories I can see how he could be construed to be a form of him. I was thinking maybe the Persians even but I see the Alexander comparison is a popular idea, mentioned on the internet a bit.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 September 2012 - 06:08 AM.

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#60    The Puzzler

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 06:25 AM

If Father Liber was the one who was Dionysus, it could almost seem what I first thought might be truer, that it was really Cyrus who was Dionysus, the Liberator and he reached to India. He's the Aryan. So, now it wouldn't surprise me if the writings of the Rig Veda are later in date. But yeah, the myths told by Greeks seem to have Alexander in the role, intriguing actually, maybe I'll spend more time on it, a few points hint to an earlier arrival than Alexander, one where a story is told that Alexander is actually told the story of Dionysus arriving before him.

Cyrus, the Liberator.
The Babylonians regarded him as "The Liberator".[78] After his conquest of Babylon, followed Cyrus's help for the return of Jews; for this, Cyrus is addressed in the Jewish Tanakh as the "Lord's Messiah". Glorified by Ezra, and by Isaiah, Cyrus is the one to whom "Yahweh, the God of heaven" has given "all the Kingdoms of the earth".
http://en.wikipedia....Cyrus_the_Great

"And those who were subject to him, he treated with esteem and regard, as if they were his own children, while his subjects themselves respected Cyrus as their 'Father' ... What other man but 'Cyrus', after having overturned an empire, ever died with the title of 'The Father' from the people whom he had brought under his power? For it is plain fact that this is a name for one that bestows, rather than for one that takes away!"

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 September 2012 - 06:26 AM.

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