13 replies to this topic

[UM-Bot]

Anthony North: When we talk of cults we talk of strange, secretive organizations that seem to live separate from society. However, perhaps the reality is that such cults are more an element of society than we think.Yes, they are secretive, and perhaps strange, but the history of cultish behaviour offers the possibility that they are an actual reflection of what it is happening in mainstream society.

The Freemasons and Rosicrucians show this process in action.

View: Full Article | Source: Beyond the Blog

[JROB]

How true, but if we asked them a question, they may give you an honest answer if we ASK, and not assume what they are.  Ijs.

Edited by JROB, 24 May 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Babe Ruth]

I agree with the point--association of people in 'secret societies' is fairly well a normal part of human behavior.  For better or for worse can only be determined by what sort of activities develop.  I happen to think the masons have noble goals and principles, though I am not a mason.  I have a friend who is one.

OTOH, the KKK does not have noble goals.

[Travelling Man]

Babe, I'll argue your point on one of semantics. THEY think the goals are noble - most don't agree, but THEY believe so. Some believe that organized religion has noble goals - others disagree. Some believe that the goals of Freemasonry are total evil and immoral... even when the "goals" are remaining valid as an organization (survival), and trying to help men become better men...

So there are different opinions on every corner...

[Babe Ruth]

True enough TM, and you make some good points, especially about organized religion.

Regarding the Masons, I know only what I've read about them and seen on TV.  As a kid, I knew many older men who were members, including a step father I had for some years.  I have one friend who is a member.

My understanding is that they are very disciplined and well-studied.  I cannot see any harm they have caused on any large scale.

Point is, I think it is possible that just as each person might be judged on an individual basis according to what he has done in this life, that same standard might be applied to any group of people.

[unit]

what boys do in their treehouse with human remains is their own business..



there is no claim of making men better..
if that were the case, masons would be out in numbers cleaning the streets and helping old ladies, everyone would be encouraged to join and there would be no need for secrets of any kind since we'd all be working overtly for the same cause, the same objective, right? right?

the claim is 'making good men better'
(people would be wise to investigate that disjunct a little further)

Quote

How true, but if we asked them a question, they may give you an honest answer if we ASK, and not assume what they are

priceless...

if that were the case kerry and bush would have responded better when asked of their membership in skull and bone.






honestly, you guys don't even try anymore...?


edit: the mystery schools, snakes shedding their skin

Quote

the KKK does not have noble goals.

before it was remodelled as the KKK, it was known as the knights of the golden circle..

Edited by unit, 29 May 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[Travelling Man]

unit, on 29 May 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

what boys do in their treehouse with human remains is their own business..

Treehouse? Human Remains?? Where are you getting this stuff?

Quote

there is no claim of making men better..
if that were the case, masons would be out in numbers cleaning the streets and helping old ladies, everyone would be encouraged to join and there would be no need for secrets of any kind since we'd all be working overtly for the same cause, the same objective, right? right?

the claim is 'making good men better'
(people would be wise to investigate that disjunct a little further)

priceless...

Try actually doing some research. One of the main tenets of Freemasonry is, "Making Good Men Better." And because you, personally, don't see herds of guys in suits out there helping Granny across the street, this means we aren't doing good works??

Freemasonry and our Appendent Bodies donates over $2,000,000 per DAY to charities, and this doesn't include the Shriners' Burn Hospitals for children (that are WORLDWIDE), the Knights Templar eye research facilities (for eye diseases), the York Rite research facilities for cardiac research, adn then local charities and works that are sponsored and conducted by the local Lodges. We send relief groups overseas to work disaster relief and support crews in areas that are impacted by disasters.

Care to try again?

Quote

if that were the case kerry and bush would have responded better when asked of their membership in skull and bone.

Skull and Bones is a college club/fraternity (it allows females, so it falls out of the definition of "pure" fraternity). Kerry, and neither of the Bushes are Freemasons - so you are comparing apples to doorknobs. Try again... again.

Quote

honestly, you guys don't even try anymore...?


edit: the mystery schools, snakes shedding their skin

before it was remodelled as the KKK, it was known as the knights of the golden circle..

We DO try - try to correct false info passed on by folks like you.

And you had better do some research on the Knights of the Golden Circle, and the KKK. Your blind conspiracy theorist's mind has confused the facts.

[Babe Ruth]

It is good to know that neither/none of the Bushes are masons.

[unit]

..i stopped reading at 'shriners raising cash for burnt children'

[edit]
i didn't want you to keep thinking i was pulling this stuff out of my ass, so i went looking for the newspaper report of human remains discovered in a local [australian] masonic lodge, complete with the admission that these were practices of days gone by.. needless to say i didn't find that report trolling through online resources.. because believe me, if i could have, i would have copied and pasted the damn thing right here for you to deal with..  and i describe it as a treehouse because that's how i see it, you guys are all playing clubhouse and no girls allowed (please don't start ranting about eastern star, job's daughters, etc) ...do you think maybe possibly just maybe there were some apples and doorknobs in my family.. and i saw some stuff? huh?

you seem to think i came down in the last shower

you may as well rant about the millions and millions that go to starving africans.. yet africans still manage to starve?

but you'd probably concede that something like the CIA might concot something like a 'tourist disguise' for an agent though, right?

..i just help old ladies cross the street where i can.. get it?

Edited by unit, 31 May 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Travelling Man]

Ooooh, _I_ understand. You refer to an alleged "source" that can't be reviewed, so your own word must be trusted on this. Then you say that good works don't matter a damn unless every ill in the entire multiverse is corrected?? Now you add another straw man in about the CIA?

To help you out, since you are either unfamiliar with the standard internet debate rules about providing links to stories...  or are just too lazy... I Googled a bit and found a story from 1999 about this - and it came as quite a shock... at the crappy reporting and lack of depth to the SINGLE article I could find. The ONLY group of which I am aware that uses mock-up bones and skull is the Knights Templar, which is not Masonic, but is one of our appendant bodies (associated groups). Of course, I am most familiar with American Freemasonry, but the Aussie folks are quite similar. The use of REAL bones is a VERY signficant deviation from Masonic rules, and if research was done about the Commanderies involved, I would bet that their charters were revoked and they lost their memberships for life.

I am so very sorry that you believe that "doing good" must entail correcting every situation in our reality. Of course, this means that you are also suspect, because there are ALWAYS little, old ladies to help across the street, so your attempts to do "good" must be part of a larger conspiracy.

And thank you for ignoring my comments about the Bushes, and Kerry - and the Knights of the Golden Circle. It helps demonstrate your unwillingness to see anything outside of your own bias.

Edited by Travelling Man, 02 June 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[unit]

roger that, so it's the shriners who are the pederasts then?

http://sandyfrost.ne...esource-updated



got it - the masons just sell dope, steal your stan deyo books (because they can be sold on Ebay for $200/$400?) and spy on your dungeons & dragons gatherings?

..thanks for clearing that up




"abbadon"

[Travelling Man]

Honestly, I wish I could live in your world for a bit, so I could understand how you could cherry-pick info and feel good about it.

Your link was informative. It discussed a "secret" group that has been well publicized for almost a full century... and used the actions of one small group of them to paint them all as pederasts. The fact that when the Masons found out about the actions of this group, every one of them - and all who had knowledge of their activities - were booted for life from the Masons, losing whatever accolades and reputation they had once held. THEN they were charged by the feds in criminal court. The Jesters lost an entire chapter, and even the Shriners took a hit. Then, this "investigative reporter" only reports half of the story. Her bias is very obvious.

So where is the controversy? Ohhhhh, I got it - a few do something illegal and therefore ALL are guilty.  Let's see - we just had a guy smoke bath salts and eat a man's face off, so that means you and I are guilty of doing drugs and cannibalism as well, right?

Where do you get these new accusations? More cherry picking from isolated incidents?  And Stan Deyo (by the way, that's the way you spell it. Proper nouns require capitalization)?? D&D?

You have to get out a bit more. Your tin-foil hat is cutting off your circulation!

Edited by Travelling Man, 16 June 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[unit]

my cousin 42 y.o. involved w/ biker gangs and the secret society network decided to hang himself a few weeks ago.

hmmm.... i wonder why?

they're all such great guys, right?


..and you're going to come back here and maintain that i'm wrong, or mistaken, or a liar, right?


[edit] - why so glib?
re: "So where is the controversy? Ohhhhh, I got it - a few do something illegal and therefore ALL are guilty."

no. see, that's you being defensive again. defending something YOU DON'T ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND. the whole interchange here between us was how i TOLD you and others the disjunct between MAKING MEN BETTER and MAKING "GOOD" MEN BETTER..

so.. were those jesters good men BEFORE they joined the lodge proper, or AFTER?

you just don't seem to get it?

Edited by unit, 13 July 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[Travelling Man]

So, what does your cousin have to do with Freemasonry? You're blaming your biker-gang cousin's death on Freemasonry? I won't make assumptions - please help me understand your line of thinking on this one, because I am lost here.

I won't make assumptions, but if you look at the huge majority of suicides, the underlying cause is due to mental illness - NOT a conspiracy of nefarious secret organizations that have it out for people of little to no international import. Your cousin commits suicide and you seek to accuse unknown assassins and not look at his own mental health or the conditions under which he was living at the time. Was there substance abuse? I am not making accusations, I am asking you to consider the more obvious possibilities before you grasp for straws.

I am not being defensive - I am attempting (evidently failing) to put myself into your shoes to see how you are establishing your blind hatred of something for which you have no understanding. To become a Freemason, you have to be morally sound (i.e. not a felon), which in our way of thinking makes you a "good" man. It is Freemasonry's goal to provide the encouragement and possible tools to help that good man become a better man.

Those jesters were possibly good men at one time - they may have lied their collective butts off and slipped through the cracks of our investigative process. And, as I have pointed out, this is ONE small group from a single chapter of jesters - of hundreds of such chapters, of a group of fraternities that have existed for 250 years.

Yeah, I do "get it" - I see an isolated incident that you are blowing out of proportion and using to generalize over an entire organization. You don't see yourself doing this? I certainly do - and I am sure that others do as well.

--And before you think me a total jerk, I offer my sincere condolences over the loss of your cousin.