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Where are the men who can move mountains?

jesus faith mountain mustard seed move

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#16    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 09 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

First, I don't think we should assume the fig tree was out of season. That's just a leap over faith and into warm and fuzzy no-where land.
No, it is what the text says:

And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
~ Mark 11:13

And that Israel was often compared allegorically with a fig tree is a fact of biblical history.  Do with that what you will.


View PostRaptor Witness, on 09 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I think He just got mad, and His anger resulted in the exact opposite of healing. It certainly impressed His disciples. I mean wow; He can make bad things happen too.

If we use your line of reasoning, then every miracle He performed had something attached to it besides genuine human emotion. In other words, you dehumanize Him, which is a huge part of the foundation of our faith.

Jesus was just being good when he was healing the sick and raising the dead, but He never hurt anything intentionally? I have a gut feeling that He hurt more than just the fig tree, and when we see that mountain thrown into the sea in Revelation and about a billion people die; He won't be doing it to reason away His emotions. He'll be doing it because, He's mad.

This castration of Jesus must infuriate Him. No wonder He kills about two thirds of mankind. They refuse to believe He was a real man who can also kill you in a heartbeat with what simply comes out of His mouth.

Remember, in the end He spits out the luke-warm church, and what man returns to His spittle on the ground? They make Him sick.
Can I ask for some clarification please - if you didn't want to hear Christian answers, why did you ask a question about Christian beliefs?  I took the time to outline the prophecies of Zechariah 14 and how it applies to Jesus' comment on throwing mountains into the sea (and I apologise, it wasn't east/west it moved, it was north/south - the valley that was formed travelled east/west - I did say I was quoting from memory).  I made these comments and you chose to ignore them, focusing on Jesus' anger instead.


I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that you weren't really interested in hearing answers.  You just wanted to share what you thought was a "contradiction", after all - where are the mountain movers?  If you aren't interested in hearing answers, I'm not interested in wasting my time giving any further.  I'll keep that in mind next time I see a thread started by you, Raptor.  I wish you the best for the future :tu:

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#17    Raptor Witness

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 09 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

No, it is what the text says:

And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.
~ Mark 11:13
Leave it to Mark to add in the warm and fuzzy explanation. It probably got added later, as Matthew doesn't mention the seasonal part, and it's quoted correctly in Post 1.

Thomas Jefferson, who I regard as the greatest American that ever lived, kept a Bible that highlighted what Jesus said, and omitted everything else.

I sort of like that idea. It tells you more about the man that lived, breathed, and walked among us.

Here's the real meat, the real man talking, without explanation:

“No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you.” And at once the fig tree withered.

“Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen.22“And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”

In other words, you can make your anger manifest itself too.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 09 May 2013 - 08:13 AM.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#18    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 09 May 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Leave it to Mark to add in the warm and fuzzy explanation. It probably got added later, as Matthew doesn't add the seasonal part, and it's quoted correctly in Post 1.
And since Mark is acknowledged to have been written before Matthew, your reason for dismissing this as a late addition is.... what, exactly?  Only your preconceptions, I'm afraid.


View PostRaptor Witness, on 09 May 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Thomas Jefferson, who I regard as the greatest American that ever lived, kept a Bible that highlighted what Jesus said, and omitted everything else.
Unfortunately, Thomas Jefferson didn't have much competition to be declared the greatest American.  Ok, jokes aside, he's not the first to do this, probably won't be the last.  For me, though, I'm a Bible-believing Christian.  That means I accept all the Bible, not just the stuff I happen to like or agree with.  But that's just me, I wish you the best with whatever you happen to believe.  It nevertheless does not take away from what the Bible may say about the Mount of Olives in its proper contextual understanding.

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#19    Raptor Witness

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:26 AM

Fine, let's let some other human beings chime in. Warm and fuzzy has it's limitations.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#20    shrooma

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

can I say, that as a non-believer, i'm finding it interesting that different people have totally different interpretations of the same passages from the bible.
guess there's more mileage in the good book than I thought.....

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#21    Timonthy

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

View PostLesionia, on 08 May 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

I believe it was possible, and still is but doubt clouds the mind.
You're thinking of the dark side...

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#22    White Crane Feather

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 06:33 PM

Coal company's move mountains, I suppose the CEOs of these company's can do it. Indeed because of the erosion problems with doing this the mountain pretty much ends up in the sea at some point.. Just saying :)

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#23    Doug1o29

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 07 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

So where are these men of whom Jesus spoke? If no human will ever attain this level of faith in all of history, why bother putting it out there as an example?
Mohammed, after many attempts to get a mountain to come to him, is reputed to have said:  "If the mountain will not come to Mohammed, then Mohammed will go to the mountain."  I call that a practical solution.
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#24    Serpentine

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:19 PM

Figures are moving across a landscape and one figure speaks and then another figure speaks. We say Jesus spoke to His disciples and we infer that one person was speaking to another and especially so in the story form of the Bible and especially so because we think the things written there have meaning to us here and now.


But this is the differentiating mind at work. We are brought up to think we are separate people and are surrounded by separate people each with there own names.

This is illusory.

Jesus was not speaking to other people and the world does indeed move mountains down to the sea and back again and on rare occasions now impacts the things the size of mountains into the oceans.

Edited by Serpentine, 09 May 2013 - 07:22 PM.


#25    Blueogre2

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

No one can move a mountain, it's just not gonna a happen. Prayer can make a person feel better but thats about it. I suppose if a person really wanted to see a miracle and if they prayed hard enough they might delude themselves into thinking the mountain moved but it would only be in their own warped perception. Miracles are just stories made up to strengthen people's faith thats all. In the end if you want a real miracle then just study the way the water cycle works.


#26    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:45 AM

For me it is very simple. A man or men with faith/ belief, can do anything they can imagine doing. A man/men with no faith will never attempt anything and thus will never accomplish anything. It is not the physical power of faith which directly moves the mountain, but the power of the faith in the men who, given such power of faith, then move the mountain. I regularly drive past several mountains which have been moved by the faith of men.  They held a fortune in iron ore. and men had faith they could profit from mining it.

Over a couple of decades mountains were moved form one location to another as the ore was mined and processed.

I saw one of these in the Kimberlys which was named "Faith". Someone obviously had some biblical knowledge and a sense of humour ie "with faith we shall move mountains"

Posted Image



Heres a picture of the iron duke mine in my home state when production began. it was a small mountain. Like iron baron and iron knob, (yup a real place) today it is almost non existent, replaced by a giant slag heap.

Posted Image

Edited by Mr Walker, 10 May 2013 - 10:53 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#27    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:53 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 May 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

For me it is very simple. A man or men with faith/ belief, can do anything they can imagine doing. A man/men with no faith will never attempt anything and thus will never accomplish anything. It is not the physical power of faith which directly moves the mountain, but the power of the faith in the men who, given such power of faith, then move the mountain. I regularly drive past several mountains which have been moved by the faith of men.  They held a fortune in iron ore. and men had faith they could profit from mining it.

Well obviously people cannot do anything they can imagine doing based on faith or anything else; you nor I can fly without a lot of assistance, faith or not.  Despite what you assert, people attempt things without faith all the time; I've played the lottery multiple times without any 'faith' that I was going to win.  I think the words 'reason' and 'evidence' are far better words than 'faith' in about every one of your sentences above; men didn't have 'faith' they could profit from mining, they had very good reason to believe they could and plenty of evidence to support it.

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#28    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think Mr. Walker's use of the word "faith" is a bit of sloppy thinking.  They had "faith" that they could make money mining a mountain of iron ore.  That isn't quite the same sort of "faith" that one must have to believe in the irrational. I think that is known as the fallacy of equivocation.


#29    _Only

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:38 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 May 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think Mr. Walker's use of the word "faith" is a bit of sloppy thinking.  They had "faith" that they could make money mining a mountain of iron ore.  That isn't quite the same sort of "faith" that one must have to believe in the irrational. I think that is known as the fallacy of equivocation.

"Irrational" examples of faith are the types used sometimes in metaphor to make a more extreme impression. Faith that you can ride a bike without falling could equally be equated to this (dare I say it again) metaphor, and it wouldn't be wrong.

But I thought Walker was just implying that the name giver of the equipment had a tongue in cheek aim for that name, and the two weren't meant to be equated like you're saying.

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#30    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:03 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 10 May 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Well obviously people cannot do anything they can imagine doing based on faith or anything else; you nor I can fly without a lot of assistance, faith or not.  Despite what you assert, people attempt things without faith all the time; I've played the lottery multiple times without any 'faith' that I was going to win.  I think the words 'reason' and 'evidence' are far better words than 'faith' in about every one of your sentences above; men didn't have 'faith' they could profit from mining, they had very good reason to believe they could and plenty of evidence to support it.
No you are wrong. I can fly, and indeed have done so with nothing more than a hang glider or a glider to support me. ANd only human imagination and faith enabled this to happen. The first people to fly, the first to build a hot air balloon, the first to build a steam engine, or a boomerang had only faith.

Yes reason and logic help once the principles and practicality of a thing are established, but initially one needs imagination and faith.  So many humans live such ordinary lives because they do not have faith in who and wha they could be and what they could do and become

One can also invest  faith in unlikely things. I take a lottery ticket whenever the pool reaches 20 million or more. I know the chance of winning is 1 in 140 million but I also know that if i dont take a ticket I have NO chance of winning. And so far minor winings  have kept me in front over several decades. Anyone can attempt something they know will succeed. It takes faith to atempt things we do NOT know will work. Eg making a parachute brake for a push bike, or constructing ones own skate board  water skis  sand boards and surf boards before they were commercially  available, creating ones own explosive devices, timers mortars and rockets, or designing and building an A frame holiday home from scratch. Entering an underground storm water system with nothing more than a torch strapped to your head and a home made skateboard to lie on, at the age of  about 12 or 13,  in an attempt to explore and map it, requires faith in your self and your abilities. Sure i checked the weather forecast to make sure it wasnt going to rain, but even then it required faith /belief to accept that there would be no flooding.

All these are projects  (among hundreds) which I have been involved in during my life. None of these were guaranteed success, but I had faith in my self and in my father (who designed the two story A frame beach home)
I repeat; humans can eventually do ANYTHING they have faith in doing,  using imagination and technology. Only lack of faith/belief, limits what we are capable of.

Edited by Mr Walker, 11 May 2013 - 03:07 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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