Timeaus was a myth making exercise

[onefourfour]

Timaeus was a myth making exercise. Plato was very interested in writing "software" for human understanding to create human beings of a certain type, moderate desires, and support intellectuals. (See Leo Strauss' work.) Timaeus was intended to be a demonstration of how to make an excellent myth for people to believe in, which would further the goals of philosophers and create happier conditions for the lives of others. It was never intended to be truthful. Read the Republic carefully, and read Laws. Both of those dialogues will tell you what the old men were up to in Timaeus. Lastly, it should be noted that Timaeus is an entirely fictional dialogue invented by Plato. It never happened. The characters never had those thoughts, or that conversation. Plato never hid his capabilities for deception very hard.

Dear reader, before you go believing everything you read in Plato, it would help to study the dialogues (which are all fictional) and understand the author, and his intent. Did you know Plato tried to found a new polis in Sicily? (It failed, and he retired to writing.)

Plato is a very political man. You might compare him most to Machiavelli. Do not think he was a mystic or some kind of metaphysical scientist. He wasn't. His dialogues are entirely social, political, and intended to produce new human beings. Christianity was the work of a well educated Platonist revising Judaism by building on current events. Paul was educated in Greek thought, not Jewish.

I hope this is helpful to someone.

[jaylemurph]

This is completely rational, well-informed and well-presented.

Which means it will be (regretably) totally ignored by the people who need to read it most.

--Jaylemurph

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

It's the perfect piece of science fiction - science fiction (good science fiction) has always taken a pre-existing social or cultural condition and exaggerated it or turned it on it's head to make the reader examine it from a different persepective and see the flaws or the advantages of what's being discussed.

19th century colonialism and the way the "superior white man" treats the people he meets? It becomes "The War of the Worlds".

The class system oppressing the workers? The Morlocks and the Eloi in "The Time Machine".

The reassurgence of Fascism and "us versus them"? Daleks.

A fear that we're becoming too reliant on technology? Cybermen and the Borg (although both have become little more then "techno-zombies" but then Romero Zombies are also a comment on society).

Society getting too far from an ideal? Atlantis.

[onefourfour]

Thanks for appreciating what I said. For those looking to be mystified by Plato, you're better off looking at the dimensions and proportions of Magnesia in Laws and comparing those with Stonehenge and the Great Pyramid.

[Hanslune]

Well written - thanks

I would suggest working the Meropis story into that description.

[onefourfour]

Plato inspired all kinds - lol

[onefourfour]

It turns out there is a whole lot of truth in Timaeus. It may be represented as a myth making exercise in the dialogue, but I was wrong to think it was merely political. There are truths in there I can't understand how Plato knew about.

I was wrong I was wrong I was wrong! Oh wonderful truth!

[onefourfour]

""There still remained a fifth construction, which the god used for embroidering the constellations on the whole heaven."

The fifth solid is the dodecahedron.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2003/oct/08/is-the-universe-a-dodecahedron

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1008_031008_finiteuniverse.html

there are plenty more

The dodecahedron is constructed entirely of Phi proportions. (Connected pentagons.)

For what it's worth....

[SHaYap]

Maybe Plato has a bit more to say about it all :

Plato's Code ?

~

Science historian cracks "the Plato code"

28 Jun 2010

A science historian at The University of Manchester has cracked “The Plato Code” – the long disputed secret messages hidden in the great philosopher’s writings.

• UNiversity of Manchester link
  

• Jay Kennedy, History and Philosophy of Science New Research on Plato and Pythagoras wordpress link
  

~

[onefourfour]

Holy crap! Thank you for this, I'll check it out!

[onefourfour]

This is fascinating and definitely lines up with the Plato I know. Looks like now there is a whoooole lot of work to do. Jay says elsewhere that this proves Strauss was wrong, but the article has been removed from the internet. I have read a lot of Strauss and nothing about Jay's work is inconsistent with Strauss; On the contrary it supports Strauss a great deal. I would need to see the article though before I know why exactly Jay thinks otherwise. Certainly avoiding persecution by using esoteric writing devices is what Strauss was all about, so it baffles me that he drew this conclusion.

Thanks so much for this, I really appreciate it. It seems the work isn't even that new and yet he seems relatively unknown.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

You'd have thought after inventing the Plate, Plato would have been set for life.

[SHaYap]

This is fascinating and definitely lines up with the Plato I know. Looks like now there is a whoooole lot of work to do. Jay says elsewhere that this proves Strauss was wrong, but the article has been removed from the internet. I have read a lot of Strauss and nothing about Jay's work is inconsistent with Strauss; On the contrary it supports Strauss a great deal. I would need to see the article though before I know why exactly Jay thinks otherwise. Certainly avoiding persecution by using esoteric writing devices is what Strauss was all about, so it baffles me that he drew this conclusion.

Thanks so much for this, I really appreciate it. It seems the work isn't even that new and yet he seems relatively unknown.

A lot of Professional Reputations is at stake here ~ though I don't understand why ~ and its nothing so 'esoteric' at least as far as I understand it , which is not much ~

A lot of it is way over my head ~

Coming from a Chinese perspective , things like these is nothing out of the ordinary ~ even to this day modern Scholars are discovering and more importantly , proving that the ancient documents are constructed in such a manner due to whatever reasons which is readily accepted as 'unknowable' ~ and is giving greater meaning to the 'Mythical Legends' of the ancient China past ~

~

[docyabut2]

Timaeus was a myth making exercise. Plato was very interested in writing "software" for human understanding to create human beings of a certain type, moderate desires, and support intellectuals. (See Leo Strauss' work.) Timaeus was intended to be a demonstration of how to make an excellent myth for people to believe in, which would further the goals of philosophers and create happier conditions for the lives of others. It was never intended to be truthful. Read the Republic carefully, and read Laws. Both of those dialogues will tell you what the old men were up to in Timaeus. Lastly, it should be noted that Timaeus is an entirely fictional dialogue invented by Plato. It never happened. The characters never had those thoughts, or that conversation. Plato never hid his capabilities for deception very hard.

Dear reader, before you go believing everything you read in Plato, it would help to study the dialogues (which are all fictional) and understand the author, and his intent. Did you know Plato tried to found a new polis in Sicily? (It failed, and he retired to writing.)

Plato is a very political man. You might compare him most to Machiavelli. Do not think he was a mystic or some kind of metaphysical scientist. He wasn't. His dialogues are entirely social, political, and intended to produce new human beings. Christianity was the work of a well educated Platonist revising Judaism by building on current events. Paul was educated in Greek thought, not Jewish.

I hope this is helpful to someone.

I guess you can say that Plato`s Timaeus was all made up, however there`s is the character of Critias that says as a ten year old boy he heard the tale that was strange , but true.

[onefourfour]

A lot of Professional Reputations is at stake here ~ though I don't understand why ~ and its nothing so 'esoteric' at least as far as I understand it , which is not much ~

A lot of it is way over my head ~

Coming from a Chinese perspective , things like these is nothing out of the ordinary ~ even to this day modern Scholars are discovering and more importantly , proving that the ancient documents are constructed in such a manner due to whatever reasons which is readily accepted as 'unknowable' ~ and is giving greater meaning to the 'Mythical Legends' of the ancient China past ~

~

Want to show me one of the Chinese examples? I'm interested.

Re: "Esoteric", it means in this case just "hidden", as Jay is using the word "Code" here... Not specifically anything more.

[SHaYap]

Want to show me one of the Chinese examples? I'm interested.

Re: "Esoteric", it means in this case just "hidden", as Jay is using the word "Code" here... Not specifically anything more.

I don't know where to start ~ this is a few links I am currently poring over for a start ~

New discoveries from the early dynasties

Discoveries in every part of China show a multitude of different peoples inhabiting it from the neolithic period, about 6000BC, to the present day. Was there one civilisation or many? The term "Chinese civilisation'' suggests just one line of development; but the land mass of China is much larger than the areas of Egypt or Greece, with whose civilisations ancient China is conventionally matched. Differing technologies of ceramics or jades indicate several material cultures, differing from place to place; fine ornaments and imposing ritual objects indicate differing beliefs. Was one area, one group of people, one set of beliefs, more important than any other? Or did they all contribute to the final outcome - Chinese civilisation?

• 9 December 1996 times higher education link
  

Aside from many original inventions, the Chinese were also early original pioneers in the discovery of natural phenomena which can be found in the human body, the environment of the world, and the immediate solar system. They also discovered many concepts in mathematics. The list below contains discoveries which found their origins in China.

• wiki link
  

Ancient Chinese Inventions and Discoveries that Shaped the World

October 12, 2012

• world mysteries blog link
  

Rewriting Early Chinese Texts

By Edward L. Shaughnessy

• google books link
  
• suny press link
  
• review by William G. Boltz University of Washington, Seattle pdf link
  

~

[The Puzzler]

Holy crap! Thank you for this, I'll check it out!

I discovered it through Wiki, haven't read that guys book (Pythagorean connection) and Ive also read Laws, very carefully, Ive also told this lot to read it and see the structure of the story of Atlantis beneath it, alas, no-one listens to me though...

A musical scale presupposes an unlimited continuum of pitches, which must be limited in some way in order for a scale to arise. The crucial point is that not just any set of limiters will do. One may not simply choose pitches at random along the continuum and produce a scale that will be musically pleasing. The diatonic scale, also known as "Pythagorean," is such that the ratio of the highest to the lowest pitch is 2:1, which produces the interval of an octave. That octave is in turn divided into a fifth and a fourth, which have the ratios of 3:2 and 4:3 respectively and which, when added, make an octave. If we go up a fifth from the lowest note in the octave and then up a fourth from there, we will reach the upper note of the octave. Finally the fifth can be made up of three (largest) whole tones (each corresponding to the ratio of 9:8) plus a perfecting semitone (with a ratio of 256:243). Likewise, the fourth can be made up of two whole tones plus the same perfecting semitone. This is a good example of a concrete applied use of Philolaus’ reasoning. In Philolaus' terms the fitting together of limiters and unlimiteds involves their combination in accordance with ratios of numbers (harmony). Similarly the cosmos and the individual things in the cosmos do not arise by a chance combination of limiters and unlimiteds; the limiters and unlimiteds must be fitted together in a "pleasing" (harmonic) way in accordance with number for an order to arise.

http://en.wikipedia..../Pythagoreanism

First of all, he took away one part of the whole [1], and then he separated a second part which was double the first [2], and then he took away a third part which was half as much again as the second and three times as much as the first [3], and then he took a fourth part which was twice as much as the second [4], and a fifth part which was three times the third [9], and a sixth part which was eight times the first [8], and a seventh part which was twenty-seven times the first [27]. After this he filled up the double intervals [i.e. between 1, 2, 4, 8] and the triple [i.e. between 1, 3, 9, 27] cutting off yet other portions from the mixture and placing them in the intervals, so that in each interval there were two kinds of means, the one exceeding and exceeded by equal parts of its extremes [as for example 1, 4/3, 2, in which the mean 4/3 is one-third of 1 more than 1, and one-third of 2 less than 2], the other being that kind of mean which exceeds and is exceeded by an equal number. Where there were intervals of 3/2 and of 4/3 and of 9/8, made by the connecting terms in the former intervals, he filled up all the intervals of 4/3 with the interval of 9/8, leaving a fraction over; and the interval which this fraction expressed was in the ratio of 256 to 243.

http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

Edited December 20, 2014 by The Puzzler

[onefourfour]

It's not Plato's knowledge of proportion/ratio that was ever unknown. That is widely understood, anyone who denies that is really clueless. Strauss was all about recognizing the political wisdom that wrapped up the rest, and Plato's prominent followers completely missed it somehow.

What is new about this specific discovery is that the writing itself is organized to reflect the proportions and the harmony and disharmony of these ratios. The content of a paragraph is written to line up in musical principle with the position of the paragraph in the writing.

It seems to me that with this context in mind now, the Atlantis story is likely an allegory and a writing device with much truth underlying it, without it being history, in the modern sense of the word.

Very cool.

Edited December 21, 2014 by onefourfour

[bsbray]

The general idea of the OP may be true; I'm not particularly keen on that area of Greek thought.

However there were other ancient Greek writers who wrote of Atlantis or made references to it. Plato is just the most well-known. I have names written down that I can find if anyone's interested, they were just not particularly famous ancient Greeks. One of them was a sailor/geographer if I'm not mistaken. Also the Native Americans of Latin America had flood myths of sunken lands whose survivors made it ashore in Latin America, and there are various other flood myths and even etymological "coincidences" that seem to point to Atlantis.

Atlantis is just Greek for something to the extent of "the Island of Atlas." The various Indo-European peoples on the western shores of Europe, in the Iberian Peninsula, in France, the British Isles and Scandinavia have variations of lost homelands or paradises that are called things like Atilia, Avalon, Alba. Even the Viking "Valhalla" may have evolved from the same root word as these others, as the "V" in the word may be a linguistic artifact. When ancient Germanic languages broke off from the Indo-European stem they also began to change consonant sounds such as "p" (as in Latin "pater," for father) into "f" or "v" (as in German "vater," for father). "V" and "b" also change roles a lot as languages evolve. What looks like the letter B in the Russian alphabet actually represents the "v" sound, for example. So in all of these words for ancient paradises and lost homelands, we have some changes in consonants, but they all have an "a" vowel, two of them in fact, on both ends of a middle section of consonants that also all feature the letter "L." So this is just spelling out the similarity that seems to exist between words like Atlas, Atilia, Avalon, Alba, Valhalla, etc. We're talking about a roughly 10,000 year period of time since a disaster apparently sank this ancient civilization, so the divergence of what it's called by various cultures could be expected as languages themselves separated.

Edited December 23, 2014 by bsbray

[Harte]

The general idea of the OP may be true; I'm not particularly keen on that area of Greek thought.

However there were other ancient Greek writers who wrote of Atlantis or made references to it. Plato is just the most well-known. I have names written down that I can find if anyone's interested, they were just not particularly famous ancient Greeks. One of them was a sailor/geographer if I'm not mistaken.

Please provide us with at least this list, if not pertinent quotes concerning Atlantis.

I don't believe you. I've looked into this myself.

Also the Native Americans of Latin America had flood myths of sunken lands whose survivors made it ashore in Latin America, and there are various other flood myths and even etymological "coincidences" that seem to point to Atlantis.

Atlantis is just Greek for something to the extent of "the Island of Atlas." The various Indo-European peoples on the western shores of Europe, in the Iberian Peninsula, in France, the British Isles and Scandinavia have variations of lost homelands or paradises that are called things like Atilia, Avalon, Alba. Even the Viking "Valhalla" may have evolved from the same root word as these others, as the "V" in the word may be a linguistic artifact. When ancient Germanic languages broke off from the Indo-European stem they also began to change consonant sounds such as "p" (as in Latin "pater," for father) into "f" or "v" (as in German "vater," for father). "V" and "b" also change roles a lot as languages evolve. What looks like the letter B in the Russian alphabet actually represents the "v" sound, for example. So in all of these words for ancient paradises and lost homelands, we have some changes in consonants, but they all have an "a" vowel, two of them in fact, on both ends of a middle section of consonants that also all feature the letter "L." So this is just spelling out the similarity that seems to exist between words like Atlas, Atilia, Avalon, Alba, Valhalla, etc. We're talking about a roughly 10,000 year period of time since a disaster apparently sank this ancient civilization, so the divergence of what it's called by various cultures could be expected as languages themselves separated.

All that is just mental m********ion, and with little emphasis on the "mental," in the standard meaning of the term.

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

The general idea of the OP may be true; I'm not particularly keen on that area of Greek thought.

However there were other ancient Greek writers who wrote of Atlantis or made references to it. Plato is just the most well-known. I have names written down that I can find if anyone's interested, they were just not particularly famous ancient Greeks. One of them was a sailor/geographer if I'm not mistaken. Also the Native Americans of Latin America had flood myths of sunken lands whose survivors made it ashore in Latin America, and there are various other flood myths and even etymological "coincidences" that seem to point to Atlantis.

...

Welcome to UM, bsbray.

There is no doubt the word "Atlantis" predates Plato. Herodotus (c. 450 BCE) uses it in his Histories, but in reference to the Atlantic Ocean. Hellanicus, probably around the same time, uses it in a story about the daughter of Atlas. So that much is clear, but it is also clear that the story of a powerful state called Atlantis which fought ancient Athens and was subsequently destroyed and sunk into the sea, appears no earlier than Plato. In so far as we can determine this spin on Atlantis was Plato's invention. It must remain as such until (or if) future textual evidence changes our understanding.

Native American myths are not germane to Plato's story. It is only natural that ancient people's legends will sometimes bear similarities the world over because people through time have shared in the human experience. This of course does not mean, however, that Plato's Atlantis has anything to do with ancient Native American myths. I am not familiar with the example you mentioned but one often cited by posters is the Aztec mythical homeland Aztlan. It sorta-kind sounds like Atlantis, and the Aztecs did end up founding a large city on an island, so there must be a connection, right? No, of course there isn't.

This sort of thing (Aztlan = Atlantis) is what we call Lego linguistics around here. I can't remember who coined the term but it's perfect. A proper study of linguistics teaches the student that human languages are complicated and it takes a hell of a lot more than two things sorta-kinda sounding alike for there to be an actual connection.

Harte, was it you who coined "Lego linguistics"? Well, you'll probably take credit anyway.

Edited December 23, 2014 by kmt_sesh

[Harte]

No, I believe it was either Diechecker or maybe TheSearcher.

Or it could be anyone else. You won't talk me into looking it up. I can't tell the players without a program.

You know who might know? The Puzzler. She was the target of that term.

Harte

[Harte]

No, I believe it was either Diechecker or maybe TheSearcher.

Or it could be anyone else. You won't talk me into looking it up. I can't tell the players without a program.

You know who might know? The Puzzler. She was the target of that term.

Harte

You know what? I think it was The Spartan.

Harte

[Hanslune]

The general idea of the OP may be true; I'm not particularly keen on that area of Greek thought.

However there were other ancient Greek writers who wrote of Atlantis or made references to it. Plato is just the most well-known. I have names written down that I can find if anyone's interested, they were just not particularly famous ancient Greeks. One of them was a sailor/geographer if I'm not mistaken.

As noted by Kmt there were and those that wrote about Plato's Atlantis did so after he did so.

[bsbray]

It's good that upon my first post here I was greeted with "mental m********ion." One of the aspects of human psychology that Carl Jung discovered is called "projection." This is where a person who is not yet integrated or psychologically mature, and as a result has recurring tension or conflict with aspects of the outside world, projects the tensions and conflicts that they keep experiencing back onto others as if it is always the fault of others that this issue keeps arising. In effect individuals who will not address issues within themselves blame the issue on others instead. In practice what this means is that individuals of a certain level of development direct language at others that accurately describes themselves and their own issues which they have failed to seriously examine. It seems to me that the term I cited at the beginning of this post best describes someone who would, for example, spend lots of time directing these kinds of terms towards other individuals on an Internet forum. Lots of time, apparently. I could hardly think of a better example of real "mental m********ion." Is that not a fair statement? Of course it's a fair statement, and professional historians or anyone who has actually attended a university in general would have learned how to more appropriately communicate with other people, even and especially when they disagree on something.

I say it's good that I was greeted with this here because I didn't have to waste time here before all the cards were on the table as to what kind of discussion takes place here. If anyone is really interested in these subjects, and wants to discuss them, of course there are more serious websites and forums where people communicate with each other in the same way that people communicate face-to-face, ie generally in a much more respectful manner. Society has lots of words to describe people who are disrespectful to others and none of them that I can think of are particularly flattering.

As far as linguistics being "complicated." I've studied linguistics, especially Indo-European linguistics, because language is a powerful of tool in the study of history. When the various ancient tribes of Europe roamed the continent, whether they migrated out of Asia or elsewhere, the relations between the languages they left behind often give a clearer picture of common origins than scarce shards of pottery or metal tools can. It wasn't until relatively recently in the study of history (last 100-200 years or so) that it was realized that the Celtic languages are Indo-European and thus that the Celtic tribes must also have had a common origin at some distant point in the past with the Romans and Germanic tribes. So again, this can be a very powerful tool.

Something can seem complicated for a number of reasons. For one thing, things often sem complicated to someone who doesn't understand them. A car engine is very complex but to a mechanic who is very familiar with its ins and outs, it still may not seem all that complicated. I believe this is the case here. Not only the words themselves that I mentioned above are similar in terms of their phonemes (I didn't even bring up the Meso-American words, only western European), but they all refer to similar concepts of lost lands, and they all come from cultures that had contact with each other or a common origin (an already-established common origin) in the distant past in that they are all Indo-European languages that evolved together from a common ancient tongue. A serious historian or even a serious linguist could take all of this into account and see that already we have a strong case for mutual relevance. For someone to whom things are little understood and seem complicated, you can imagine how easy it would be to doubt and take things apart, especially when there is no desire to consider the ideas in the first place and their very participation in the discussion is solely to be antagonistic. If this describes you then I don't have to explain it to you; you already know what's in your heart when you hunt out discussions like this and it isn't to help anyone but rather to vent something or feed something that's inside of you, that you know isn't healthy.

There are lots of places online where I could go to get into petty bickering and arguments with people who hang around as if it's a bar. From what little I've seen in the little time I bothered to sign up here it appears that this is one of these places. For anyone who is serious about these subjects, if you are really interested in studying these areas of history, first of all I would recommend some books because the content is usually much better and more comprehensive in a decent book than you will find it on any Internet forum. In regards to Atlantis you could study anything from changes in water levels and geography since the last ice age, to the histories of ancient tribes and nations such as the Etruscans, Pelasgians and Hyksos, to the ancient flood myths from all over the world that I'm sure could not be seriously considered here for any number of ill-founded reasons.

Edited December 23, 2014 by bsbray