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Best evidence for ET visitation - 3rd edition


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#2206    skyeagle409

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 05:39 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 23 April 2011 - 04:11 AM, said:

no... you're wrong... they addressed that....

Posted Image

:unsure2:

Note the words, "mystery lights OVER Valley."

That simply means the lights were observed overhead by thousands of people in the valley and once again, the mountains would have blocked out any lights over the BGR at that time, so the plot thickens.
One of the reasons why I posted that photo of the Chicago skyline and the elevations of both, the BGR, and o Phoenix, but it seems that the dots have not been connected by what I have been reading.

At the time, the Air Force did not acknowledge that the lights were flares, which should have been suspect right at the beginning when the Air Force could  produce no operational reports either to support any flare drops at that time. Not only that, the lights were also seen in Nevada as they headed toward  Arizona, and  similar sightings have taken place elsewhere.

Edited by skyeagle409, 23 April 2011 - 05:48 PM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#2207    booNyzarC

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 06:02 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 23 April 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

Look at the Air Force's sloppy flare demonstration at timeline 5:26 to explain the "Phoenix Lights."




So, is it any wonder then, why those who saw the lights that night, have scoffed at the Air Force's demonstration as well as myself?
Dr. Lynne D. Kitei says herself at 5:50 that the flare drop footage was a close up.  It isn't a fair comparison to the original 97 footage by any means.


#2208    odiesbsc

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 07:35 PM

Skyeagle, Good job debunking the Phoenix flare fantasy. Although I haven't seen the Phoenix lights in person, I have seen hundreds of flares dropped (close and long distances) while on my two tours of duty in South East Asia. (Danang area) From the videos I've seen of the Phoenix lights, they do not look like flares to me. I wonder just how many of the skeptics have actually seen flares dropped?

BTW Sky, Did you spend much time at the Danang AFB, at Marble Mtn?

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#2209    booNyzarC

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:18 PM

View Postodiesbsc, on 23 April 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Skyeagle, Good job debunking the Phoenix flare fantasy. Although I haven't seen the Phoenix lights in person, I have seen hundreds of flares dropped (close and long distances) while on my two tours of duty in South East Asia. (Danang area) From the videos I've seen of the Phoenix lights, they do not look like flares to me. I wonder just how many of the skeptics have actually seen flares dropped?

BTW Sky, Did you spend much time at the Danang AFB, at Marble Mtn?

Odie
How exactly did skyeagle debunk the analysis of the videos?  We have determined beyond any reasonable doubt that the videos are flares.  I must have missed something because I didn't see him debunk anything at all... :mellow:


#2210    DONTEATUS

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 03:29 AM

Its not the debunking,nor the He says I says,Youz says !!  Its that 10,000 plus people saw this event from many different angles and they wont say a Thing or release any actual data Now thats funny isnt it?
Like the Stephenville Texas event Not a bit of radar data will be released.
Odd that the Man is still covering all this up!
But the Good news is It all wont matter even a Little Bit In Twenty Years ! :rolleyes:

This is a Work in Progress!

#2211    lost_shaman

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 04:15 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 24 April 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Its not the debunking,nor the He says I says,Youz says !!  Its that 10,000 plus people saw this event from many different angles and they wont say a Thing or release any actual data Now thats funny isnt it?
Like the Stephenville Texas event Not a bit of radar data will be released.
Odd that the Man is still covering all this up!
But the Good news is It all wont matter even a Little Bit In Twenty Years ! :rolleyes:


Hey D.,

Phoenix - No, no RADAR data. Seems that not a single one of those people, or UFOlogists, or Skeptics ever requested the RADAR data in the 30 day time frame before it was automatically erased.

Stephenville - Yes, the RADAR data was requested and released.

Edited by lost_shaman, 24 April 2011 - 04:16 AM.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#2212    skyeagle409

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM

View Postodiesbsc, on 23 April 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Skyeagle, Good job debunking the Phoenix flare fantasy. Although I haven't seen the Phoenix lights in person, I have seen hundreds of flares dropped (close and long distances) while on my two tours of duty in South East Asia. (Danang area) From the videos I've seen of the Phoenix lights, they do not look like flares to me. I wonder just how many of the skeptics have actually seen flares dropped?

BTW Sky, Did you spend much time at the Danang AFB, at Marble Mtn?

Odie

Seems to me  those skeptics have never seen real flares, nor  been to Phoenix, because if they had, they would plainly see why there was no way that anyone could see flares over the BGR from down in  the valley and yet, that is where many of the sightings took place and the video camera was much higher than those in the valley and even from the camera location, there was no way anyone could see flares over the BGR from that location. Flares can be seen at long distances, but not if there is a mountain blocking the view.

They continue to insist that they are flares when in fact, they look nothing like real flares, and they are definitely not flares from more than 50 miles away, so it is of no surprise to me as to why those people, who saw both, the "Phoenix Lights" and the  Air Force's flare demonstration, have said that the flares dropped by the Air Force, were nothing like what they saw in 1997.  I have seen all of these numbers and figures floating  around here in this thread, but, the numbers were not adding up. Also, a question should be asked as to why did it take the Air Force so long to come up with a cover story for the 'Phoenix Lights?

Such lights are not new and have been seen for decades.

Posted Image



And, a lot has been going on in Nevada over the years,which is where  the craft was tracked from.

More on the "White Pine Lights."




On another note,  I was stationed  down south along the coast at Phan Rang airbase while serving in the Air force.  I have never been to Danang, but my cousin served  there in the Marines as an aid to General Cushman. .

Edited by skyeagle409, 24 April 2011 - 05:36 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#2213    S2F

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 05:51 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:

Seems to me  those skeptics have never seen real flares, nor  been to Phoenix...

I have done both, on many occasions. The lights over the Estrella mountains behaved exactly as a group of flares should. I notice you like to talk about seeing smoke from flares yet at the distance of these particular flares (70+ miles) the scant light reflected from the smoke would be practically invisible to the naked eye. Having been in the military and witness to a wide variety of flares through different operations both training and otherwise, I can attest that the lights over the Estrella mountains are not nearly as 'mysterious' as you would have us believe. Military experience or not the math doesn't lie. The only way you can argue with math is with better math and I haven't even seen so much as a hint of mathematical competence from your corner. If you know for a fact that these lights were not flares then the math should support that, so let's see it.

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#2214    lost_shaman

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 07:02 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:

Seems to me  those skeptics have never seen real flares,

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a WINNER!

Video does not show what real 'Flares' look like in real 'Life', it shows what real 'Flares' look like on Video!




View Postskyeagle409, on 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:


nor  been to Phoenix, because if they had, they would plainly see why there was no way that anyone could see flares over the BGR from down in  the valley and yet, that is where many of the sightings took place and the video camera was much higher than those in the valley and even from the camera location, there was no way anyone could see flares over the BGR from that location. Flares can be seen at long distances, but not if there is a mountain blocking the view.

I've addressed these points and 'Proven' you wrong, and I don't use the word 'Proven' lightly or often.





View Postskyeagle409, on 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:


They continue to insist that they are flares when in fact, they look nothing like real flares,

Right. They only look like real 'Flares' as recorded on Video. There is a good reason why there is a bit of difference. That is your eyes are different than the camera.


View Postskyeagle409, on 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:


  I have seen all of these numbers and figures floating  around here in this thread, but, the numbers were not adding up.


Well I beg to differ. The numbers do add up. You've presented nothing to refute the numbers.



View Postskyeagle409, on 24 April 2011 - 05:00 AM, said:


Such lights are not new and have been seen for decades.

I agree that UAP have been observed in the State for a very long time, I just do not agree that 'K's' video shows UAP, but rather it shows 'Flares'.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#2215    lost_shaman

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:49 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 24 April 2011 - 05:51 AM, said:

I have done both, on many occasions. The lights over the Estrella mountains behaved exactly as a group of flares should. I notice you like to talk about seeing smoke from flares yet at the distance of these particular flares (70+ miles) the scant light reflected from the smoke would be practically invisible to the naked eye. Having been in the military and witness to a wide variety of flares through different operations both training and otherwise, I can attest that the lights over the Estrella mountains are not nearly as 'mysterious' as you would have us believe. Military experience or not the math doesn't lie. The only way you can argue with math is with better math and I haven't even seen so much as a hint of mathematical competence from your corner. If you know for a fact that these lights were not flares then the math should support that, so let's see it.

Hey S2F,

You're right. There is even a way to calculate this "practically invisible" state of the 'Smoke'. The Human eye @ 20/20 vision can not distinguish anything less than 1 minute of arc as anything less than that is observed as a point source. At 77 miles this equates to ~118 ft.

What does this mean?

Well it means the smoke from a parachute 'Flare' must be at least 118 ft @ 77 miles before a Human eye could even notice this was not a point source! That equates to 13 seconds of decent before the Human eye w/ 20/20 vision would even notice this as anything other than a point source.

A Videocamera is not even the equivalent of a Human eye, never has been. However, that's really not the point. Both a Human eye and a Videocamera would see the same 'bright' point source of light if the point source is smaller then 1 minute of arc and the Zoom is not great enough to resolve less than 1 minute of Arc.

Astronomers deal with this situation all the time. The key here is Luminosity, as there is a direct relation between Luminosity and distance.

There is clearly more than one way to "skin this cat", so to speak.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#2216    S2F

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 09:45 AM

View Postlost_shaman, on 24 April 2011 - 08:49 AM, said:

Hey S2F,

You're right. There is even a way to calculate this "practically invisible" state of the 'Smoke'. The Human eye @ 20/20 vision can not distinguish anything less than 1 minute of arc as anything less than that is observed as a point source. At 77 miles this equates to ~118 ft.

What does this mean?

Well it means the smoke from a parachute 'Flare' must be at least 118 ft @ 77 miles before a Human eye could even notice this was not a point source! That equates to 13 seconds of decent before the Human eye w/ 20/20 vision would even notice this as anything other than a point source.

A Videocamera is not even the equivalent of a Human eye, never has been. However, that's really not the point. Both a Human eye and a Videocamera would see the same 'bright' point source of light if the point source is smaller then 1 minute of arc and the Zoom is not great enough to resolve less than 1 minute of Arc.

Astronomers deal with this situation all the time. The key here is Luminosity, as there is a direct relation between Luminosity and distance.

There is clearly more than one way to "skin this cat", so to speak.

Thanks for the technical clarification LS, for some reason I was having trouble finding the words to explain further in my post so I just left it as is. :tu:

If Sky has actually seen flares at a great distance he would know that the smoke reflection may not be visible, especially once you consider environmental conditions like cloud cover/fog, dust, ambient light, haze, etc etc which can all conspire to make the smoke even less visible at a distance. Not that the lack of visible smoke  was a strong argument to begin with however the evidence in favor of flares just keeps mounting. Hopefully we can lay this particular sighting to rest although I'm sure there are those that will still keep bleating the ET horn over it for some time to come. Oh well, to each their own I guess. :hmm:

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

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You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#2217    DONTEATUS

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 01:32 PM

So this is the best evidence thread ? A video? And DFW ATC ,and the DOD never released to the public.

This is a Work in Progress!

#2218    booNyzarC

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:11 PM

So I'm taking a stab at this math business in an effort to determine if one of the witnesses from within the city could have seen the flares over the BGR as well.  From skyeagle's videos, we do have one witness who actually gave us a location to work with for these calculations.  Tom Chavez stated that he was at the intersection of 27th Avenue and Van Buren.  Using Google Earth to place the K, L, and R locations with much more precision (thanks for the idea Peri!) and triangulated to the positions of the same 3 lights that Bruce Maccabee focused on for comparison between the 3 videos (Lights 1, 2, and 9 from the K array which he referenced as Left Light, Right Light, and Middle Light respectively.)  You can see this in Figure 18 on page 3 of Maccabee's analysis.  I basically just added this to Google Earth to confirm, and sure enough it pretty much pans out just as Peri's previous post showed.

I didn't add in the other lights from the K array because I wanted to speculate and guess as little as possible.  I might come back to this later in an effort to conclude the whole K array with estimated locations and altitudes, but for now this should suffice to prove the key point that flares dropped over the BGR can indeed be seen from where known witnesses reported their sightings.

From the initial confirmation of Maccabee's analysis regarding K, L, and R, I added a point for Tom Chavez and his location at the time of the sighting at 27th Ave and Van Buren and calculated the distance to the triangulated lights as well as the distance to the highest point of elevation in the mountain range along the track to each light.  That information and the calculations are in the first Spoiler (using spoiler so that the math phobic among us don't need to look at it).


The short version is that Tom Chavez could have definitely seen some of the flares, but probably not all of them.  I suspect that if I added the remaining flares from the K array that he would have been able to see several of the flares.

The long version:
Spoiler



Also from the videos, Lynne Kitei mentions calling the Air Traffic Controllers at Sky Harbor Airport and she stated that they also saw the lights, but nothing on RADAR.  She mentions that they saw 6 points of light thru binoculars, behind South Mountain.  So I decided to do the math from this location as well.  Sure enough, they could definitely see the lights.  In fact, they could definitely see the full array from the tower, no doubt about it.

The long version:
Spoiler

Here is a screen shot taken from Google Earth of the primary locations involved.


Posted Image

Here are the resources I used for analysis, just in case anyone else wants to try their hand at this or doublecheck my work.
Google Earth
White Pages
Arctan Calculator
Right Triangle Angle And Side Calculator
David Senesac's Visual Line of Sight Calculations for Earth's Curvature

:geek:


So there you have it.  So far everyone we've been able to peg down a sighting location for appears to be perfectly capable of seeing flares that were dropped at about 15,000 feet over the BGR.  Assuming that I didn't horrendously screw up my calculations here anyway...  And if I did, I'd love to be told where so that I can learn. :tu:

Cheers.


#2219    someoldguy

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 09:47 PM

For guys that allegedly (according to one member) don't "do their homework", most of you really impress me with your knowledge and your passion for the truth.  Sometimes I get impatient with the apparent dwelling on details, but that's just me.  It's pretty easy for me (and no doubt others) to see who's actually done their homework and those who have only been reading comic books.
My hat's off to you gentlemen.  (And ladies.)  I've learned a lot lurking here.

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Nothing creates controversy quite like the truth.

#2220    lost_shaman

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 09:55 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 24 April 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

So there you have it.  So far everyone we've been able to peg down a sighting location for appears to be perfectly capable of seeing flares that were dropped at about 15,000 feet over the BGR.  Assuming that I didn't horrendously screw up my calculations here anyway...  And if I did, I'd love to be told where so that I can learn. :tu:

Cheers.

Hey booN, nice work!

Here is the calculation I'm currently using to account for Earth's curvature... Distance in Miles (say 50 miles) squared (2,500') divided by 1.513 = 1,652.3'. That can then be converted to Angle in degrees (0.358528). Which would put your calcs. and my own much closer.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche