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Do Governments like Conspiracy Theories?


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#31    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:11 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 06 May 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Without wanting to be rude, that's utter nonsense.  The FBI had reports that terrorists could use planes to attack "American Landmarks".

Of course the FBI had such reports, but still they didn't believe it could happen in the United States. The FAA also came to that same conclusion as well, and the rest is history.

Quote

"We had general threats involving Osama bin Laden around the world and including in the United States." - Ari Fleischer WhiteHouse Press Officer.

We also had warnings that dated back to 1995.

Quote

The CIA had intercepted messages that made them believe a "group presently in the United States" were planning "imminent threats".  Our secret service over here in the UK warned during 2001 that "Multiple hijackings from members of the Al-Qaeda network".  On the 6th of August, the CIA sent a memo actually titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" : http://www.gwu.edu/~...AEBB/NSAEBB116/

And still, they dropped the ball. Remember, we had warnings of Pearl Harbor, but there were those who didn't think it could happen, however, that Japanese attack on December 7, 1941 made believers out of skeptics.

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#32    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 06 May 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Why on earth would a plane off-course immediately be shot down?

What happen here?

Quote


Korean Air Lines Flight 902

Korean Air Lines Flight 902 was a civilian airliner shot down by Soviet Sukhoi Su-15 fighters on April 20, 1978, near Murmansk, Russia, after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors. Two passengers were killed in the incident. 107 passengers and crew survived after the plane made an emergency landing on a frozen lake.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Korean Air Lines Flight 007, also known as KAL 007 or KE007, was a Korean Air Lines Boeing 747 civilian airliner shot down by a Soviet Su-15TM fighter on September 1, 1983, near Moneron Island just west of Sakhalin island. 269 passengers and crew, including US congressman Larry McDonald, were aboard KAL 007; there were no known survivors. An official investigation concluded that the course deviation was likely caused by pilot error in configuring their air navigation system.



My aircraft was involved in flying recovery gear from the Philippines to Japan for Korean Flight 007.

Edited by skyeagle409, 07 May 2013 - 12:22 AM.

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#33    Spinebreaker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:54 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Of course the FBI had such reports, but still they didn't believe it could happen in the United States. The FAA also came to that same conclusion as well, and the rest is history.

Sorry, don't believe it.  Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

We also had warnings that dated back to 1995.

and about 2 dozen from that year, some of them indicating a time scale.  Yet again, dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of intelligence agents and millions of dollars worth of equipment sitting there collating data, just to be ignored...

Flight 902 "after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors."  
Flight 007 was off course after 10 minutes, it wasn't shot down for almost an hour.

I'd say neither of those were shot down "instantly", or without other recourse first.  


Galileo was imprisoned by the Church,
For exposing that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
So in 1616 they already had control,
Of what they thought you and I were allowed to know.

#34    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:29 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Sorry, don't believe it.  Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

Believe it. Check it out.

Quote


C.I.A. Lays Out Errors It Made Before Sept. 11

WASHINGTON, Aug. 21 — A report released Tuesday by the Central Intelligence Agency includes new details of the agency’s missteps before the Sept. 11 attacks, outlining what the report says were failures to grasp the role being played by the terror mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and to assess fully the threats streaming into the C.I.A. in the summer of 2001.


http://www.worldsecu...admits-mistakes



FBI Chief Acknowledges 9/11 Errors

FBI Director Robert Mueller, acknowledging serious lapses in how the FBI mishandled some information prior to Sept. 11, suggested for the first time that investigators might have detected the terrorist plot if they had pursued leads more diligently.

Mueller's acknowledgment came amid two new disclosures of what could be missed hints about Sept. 11.

http://www.cbsnews.c...162-510607.html


FAA MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR 9-11


Despite a congressional panel investigating potential intelligence failures leading up to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks releasing a report today that points to mistakes made by the CIA and FBI, an aviation security consultant says it is the Federal Aviation Administration that should take most of the blame for the tragedy.

http://www.wnd.com/2...iE4382TjQRiq.99

The errors were clearly evident and I have noted before that such errors continued years after the 911 attacks.

Quote

Flight 007 was off course after 10 minutes, it wasn't shot down for almost an hour.


Korean Flight 007 was in international airspace when it was shot down.

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#35    psyche101

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:49 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Sorry, don't believe it.  Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

When Japanese Pilots hit Pearl Harbour, many did not believe that such a thing as Kamikaze existed. People insisted nobody in their right mind would kill themselves by flying a plane directly into a target.

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

and about 2 dozen from that year, some of them indicating a time scale.  Yet again, dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of intelligence agents and millions of dollars worth of equipment sitting there collating data, just to be ignored...

Flight 902 "after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors."  
Flight 007 was off course after 10 minutes, it wasn't shot down for almost an hour.

I'd say neither of those were shot down "instantly", or without other recourse first.  


Does the frequency not indicate that complacency might be an issue?

Edited by psyche101, 07 May 2013 - 01:50 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#36    DONTEATUS

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

The Book Store`s Love the Conspiracy`s ! :tu:

This is a Work in Progress!

#37    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 07 May 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

The Book Store`s Love the Conspiracy`s ! :tu:

I heard that! I am surprised that conspiracist have yet to thrown in a conspiracy surrounding the Port Chicago disaster in California, which isn't very far from where I live.


The Port Chicago Disaster

http://en.wikipedia....hicago_disaster

.

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#38    Spinebreaker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:46 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Believe it. Check it out.

So it's just incompetence.  Massive, massive, institutionalised incompetence involving a group of people doing a job for the government, being paid by the government specifically to listen to transmissions, intercept potential threats, ignored on a wholesale scale, repeatedly and their incompetence led to the death of thousands.

Which explains the negligence hearing and the lawsuits.

Oh yeah, they didn't happen.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Korean Flight 007 was in international airspace when it was shot down.

Not according to your link.

View Postpsyche101, on 07 May 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

When Japanese Pilots hit Pearl Harbour, many did not believe that such a thing as Kamikaze existed. People insisted nobody in their right mind would kill themselves by flying a plane directly into a target.

Even so, that was 70 years ago.  The Chinese army in the middle ages used to have a front line of troops willing to slit their own throats just to terrify the enemy.  Vlad the impaler killed 300 people in his own home just to show the bavarians what he was capable of.  Kamikaze pilots existed, people flying into buildings happens, suicide bombers happened.  The idea it was rejected on the basis of "No-one would do that, surely." I find utterly ridiculous.

View Postpsyche101, on 07 May 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Does the frequency not indicate that complacency might be an issue?

As I said before, not complacency.  In most other countries, outright criminal negligence.

Galileo was imprisoned by the Church,
For exposing that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
So in 1616 they already had control,
Of what they thought you and I were allowed to know.

#39    psyche101

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Even so, that was 70 years ago.  The Chinese army in the middle ages used to have a front line of troops willing to slit their own throats just to terrify the enemy.  Vlad the impaler killed 300 people in his own home just to show the bavarians what he was capable of.  Kamikaze pilots existed, people flying into buildings happens, suicide bombers happened.  The idea it was rejected on the basis of "No-one would do that, surely." I find utterly ridiculous.

How familiar are you with Barbara Bodine's role in 911?

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

As I said before, not complacency.  In most other countries, outright criminal negligence.

In some cases yes, but I think you are broad brushing a bit.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#40    Spinebreaker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:35 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 07 May 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

How familiar are you with Barbara Bodine's role in 911?

The name rings a bell, not sure why though.

View Postpsyche101, on 07 May 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

In some cases yes, but I think you are broad brushing a bit.

I don't think it's too out of line to say there's fault here that's being at best ignored, and at worst actively covered up.

Over 20 warnings that year, (sources vary, up to 28 or so, and that's reported warnings), threats and warnings going back to the nineties.  Now I'm sure there were shedloads of other threats and warnings too...  Now I'm sure it's a lot of people deciding which threats are credible/important enough to look into, but if the reported warnings are correct, as of August 2001 the security agencies of the western world knew that Al Qaeda had the intention of attacking US landmarks, had agents on US soil, maybe learning to pilot planes.

That, to me, sounds credible, and the combination of Planes plus Landmarks can help work it out.  I'd like to think (Admittedly, hindsight is always 20/20) that if I had been bought these pieces of info, I could have come up with a list of possible targets, and the Twin Towers would be in my top 5.

Then, for Bush et al, to do their official speeches and press conferences and to look into a camera at millions and say, with a straight face, "We had no way of knowing", "We could not conceive of this"...  Negligence.  Negligence leading to thousands of dead people.  Negligence that was lied about afterwards.  Negligence with no consequences.  It's not hard to understand why some people think the government had a hand in it.

Galileo was imprisoned by the Church,
For exposing that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
So in 1616 they already had control,
Of what they thought you and I were allowed to know.

#41    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

So it's just incompetence.  Massive, massive, institutionalised incompetence involving a group of people doing a job for the government, being paid by the government specifically to listen to transmissions, intercept potential threats, ignored on a wholesale scale, repeatedly and their incompetence led to the death of thousands.

Did you post the following message?


View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Sorry, don't believe it.  Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

Now, you know why I responded the way I did.

Quote

Not according to your link.

It was, and according to the Intel briefing we received at Clark airbase prior to being tasked to fly to Cubi Point, Philippines to upload and deliver recovery gear to Japan.

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#42    Spinebreaker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:43 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Did you post the following message?

Now, you know why I responded the way I did.

I don't see the correlation.  I'm saying that...

A - It is ridiculous for so many people and so much equipment to be being paid for and funded for intelligence gathering purposes and  then to be ignored.
B - If all this info was ignored, then it's incompetence on a scale that should be considered negligent,  and subsequent behaviour by the Bush administration was lies.


View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

It was, and according to the Intel briefing we received at Clark airbase prior to being tasked to fly to Cubi Point, Philippines to upload and deliver recovery gear to Japan.

you posted those links after I said I doubted planes would be shot down 'instantly', neither of the examples you cite were shot down instantly.

One flew into restricted airspace and was 'unresponsive', the other was off-course for 5 hours in repudiated airspace...  I understand why both were shot down.

Galileo was imprisoned by the Church,
For exposing that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
So in 1616 they already had control,
Of what they thought you and I were allowed to know.

#43    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

I don't see the correlation.  I'm saying that...

A - It is ridiculous for so many people and so much equipment to be being paid for and funded for intelligence gathering purposes and  then to be ignored.
B - If all this info was ignored, then it's incompetence on a scale that should be considered negligent,  and subsequent behaviour by the Bush administration was lies.

The point is, the government and its intelligence services admitted to mistakes made prior to the 911 attacks, mistakes that continued for years after the 911 attacks.

Quote

you posted those links after I said I doubted planes would be shot down 'instantly', neither of the examples you cite were shot down instantly.

By the time United 93 crashed near Shanksville, no shoot-down orders were issued, and once again, some commanders refused to issue those orders to their pilots even after the shoot-down order was received.

Quote

One flew into restricted airspace and was 'unresponsive', the other was off-course for 5 hours in repudiated airspace...  I understand why both were shot down.

The Korean airliners did not pose a threat to the Soviet Union. The real threat to the United States and to the Soviet Union was the false missile  warning from Soviet early warning satellites later that month and at no time has the world come as close to a global nuclear war as it did then.

Edited by skyeagle409, 07 May 2013 - 09:59 PM.

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#44    Spinebreaker

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:15 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

The point is, the government and its intelligence services admitted to mistakes made prior to the 911 attacks, mistakes that continued for years after the 911 attacks.

So.  As they have admitted mistakes, logically there should be repercussions yes?  Why do we not hear about or see these repercussions?

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

By the time United 93 crashed near Shanksville, no shoot-down orders were issued, and once again, some commanders refused to issue those orders to their pilots even after the shoot-down order was received.

I have NO idea why you are bringing in flight 93.  I have not referenced it, I have made no arguments regarding it.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 May 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

The Korean airliners did not pose a threat to the Soviet Union. The real threat to the United States and to the Soviet Union was the false missile  warning from Soviet early warning satellites later that month and at no time has the world come as close to a global nuclear war as it did then.

Possibly so.  Regardless, given the info you posted...

A - I understand why both were shot down (Though I do not necessarily agree)
B - I still do not fully understand why you mentioned them

Galileo was imprisoned by the Church,
For exposing that the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
So in 1616 they already had control,
Of what they thought you and I were allowed to know.

#45    skyeagle409

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:13 AM

View PostSpinebreaker, on 07 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

So.  As they have admitted mistakes, logically there should be repercussions yes?  Why do we not hear about or see these repercussions?

Not enough pressure, but just enough for them to admit their errors.

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