52 replies to this topic

[F3SS]

ImaLoner, on 08 December 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is judging where a person works. K_Bonita brings up a valid point.  A high school drop-out could do work in fast food.  Now, I'm not knocking high school drop-outs because they are capable of working hard, and hard work should count for something.  Fast food isn't something that requires any special prior knowledge or experience.  One could walk in one day after completing a day of high school, apply, and come in the next day to start.  No prerequisites there.  But if one pays for college and completes college, they are working toward a career.  I think that depending on the career field, the pay rate should be considerably more for them.  My step-dad worked as a "lowly" fixer for hosiery machines from the age of 17 on up.  He didn't even finish high school, and he's one of the most brilliant people I know.  He decided in his 40s to look for something which paid better.  He found it at a company run by Japanese businessmen.  It was the same line of work, only it paid MUCH more.  He stayed with the company for years, until they stopped doing hosiery.  He had to go back to work for a company which paid less - one where he'd worked before.  They offered him much more than they had paid before, but not nearly as much as the Japanese company.  He wasn't getting paid what he was worth, but he did what he had to do to take care of himself and his family.  There's no shame at all in working any job, as long as you are there every day, doing your best.  It's called work ethic.  Many fast food employees don't work as hard as they could.  I'm not saying all of them, but many don't.  I worked in fast food, and I wasn't ashamed when I did.  I saw many of my coworkers goof off daily.  As a customer, I've seen employees goof off.  I don't think unionization in this case is good, because it offers a blanket of protection for the ones who aren't actually, you know, working hard.  I have tremendous respect for people who go out every day and work as hard as possible to earn their money.  This means anyone who works hard, college educated or not.  Playing devil's advocate here, but do you think that maybe earning less money would be a big motivator for fast food employees to look for something which pays more?  I worked fast food as a stepping stone - you have to have a job to get a job (it's easier to get a job you want, if you already have a job).   The economy is bad, jobs are harder to come by, but demanding that everyone who works fast food get that amount of money is more than a little much.  I do think that for the employees who work hard, there should be an increase in their salaries, but not up to $15 an hour.  I know people who work much more difficult jobs who don't make nearly that amount.

You make so many excellent points here. Everything is exactly what I think. I have no further comment except to say kudos for common sense and a good work ethic.

supervike, on 08 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Says who?  If the market dictates it, it's the exact amount.  Just like when someone thinks an NFL Quarterback makes too much money.  They make what the market dictates.

At one time working in a fast food restaurant was just a job to have when someone is just starting out.  It would be stepping stone to gain valuable work experience.

But, increasingly, it's becoming a job that people are using to try and raise a family.

The market will dictate the fast food industry right out of business with $15 standard wages. This'll cost more jobs than it will save sending buttloads of workers right to the unemployment line. How can you not understand that? Maybe some could stay in business by name only but they'll become restaurants. Have you ever thought that maybe the reason that fast food and retailers like Walmart have become so successful is because of their business model? Maybe they know what they're doing. You're not gonna have living wage prices at these places if employees are getting paid almost twice as much as the successful business model deems necessary. What would you rather have or rather what do you think is better overall for the US economy as a whole? Millions upon millions of low to average paying jobs or a hundred thousand higher paying jobs? Dozens of choices in any given neighborhood where you can find affordable food and goods or just a few places with less than desirable overpriced items? Because with your business model millions of people lose jobs and I'd say well more than half of the places you are used to go out business. Any argument to the contrary is just a refusal to understand basic business economics.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 08 December 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[F3SS]

Sakari, on 08 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

That I was about to post. I do not know the actual percentage they make, and I do know most are franchised. I do no Mac ( forgot last name ) who owns 4 McDonalds in the Reno are drives some sweet cars, has more then one house, and appears to be doing very, very well. I am pretty damn sure he can afford to give some higher pay, and still be living very comfortable. The problem is greed, as pointed out, these jobs ( fast food ) are now becoming jobs for people to support their families.

No one makes enough money in the " lower middle class"...teachers, Chef's, etc. to not live paycheck to paycheck.

I worked a "prevailing wage " job here for 2 years. The work I was doing was $48.00 a hour. Now, if I were doing that work at a non prevailing wage job, it would be around $15.00 a hour. How does that work?

Hey man you were just blasting someone for spelling and grammar errors and your first two sentences have quite a few, but I'll digress. Do you think maybe that the problem isn't greed so much as it is reaping the benefits of success. That guy figured out how to succeed the exact same as any of his employees, neighbors, friends, acquaintances, enemies and every fellow American can do if they wanted. It's not his fault one bit for the life circumstances of any one of his employees are in. This is just a case of demonizing success. He has no gun to anyone's head keeping them in a position they don't find comfortable or otherwise and he has no rights to stop anybody from finding greener pastures and mimicking his success.
One last thing: a prevailing wage is just a nice term to describe government paying more than twice as much for the same work the private sector would pay for. Don't get me wrong, more power to you for landing such a position. I never knock anybody for finding a job making as much as they can but really it's just government waste.

[Jeremiah65]

This is a great example of the quandary our economy is in.  Here we have a group of people that are doing a task that they think deserves more money.  We have another group of people that says it is not.  We have a group of customers mixed over the specifics.

IF they got their way, then said company is just going to raise the price of the menu items to offset the cost...this is normal and should be expected.  If you are making 20% profit with wages as they are now, you will inflate the prices to cover your new costs so that you continue to make 20%...anyone/everyone would do this.  Instead of a big Mac being $2.99, now it'll be more along the line of $5.00.  (Just a guess)

Is that going to stop people from shoveling this trash in their face?  Probably a little but not much.

Now the other side of this is the corporate welfare these companies get for paying these low wages.  You make 7.25 an hour and only work part time so you are more than likely qualified for food stamps.  Everyone likes to think of food stamps as a handout to the poor or under-employed when the actual truth is...it is a hand out to companies.  They can get away with paying low wages as the workers are subsidized by the Gov on behalf of the company paying the low wages.  Think of it this way.  If there was no food stamps, the Gov would demand these companies pay a wage that would allow people to feed and shelter themselves...with the subsidy of food stamps, at least one of those things is basically addressed.

OK...that is my rant.  It is a lose - lose situation.  It's a sad day that adults with families are looking to these terrible jobs to feed and shelter themselves.  These jobs SHOULD be for high school/college kids...they were never intended to support a family on...and they can't.  Jacking up the wages will not answer this problem...

The bottom line in a system like ours is that some must have less so others can have more...it is how it works.  I didn't make the system, but I "get" how it works.  There is no Utopia, there is no Shangri-La.  This is the way things work...until greed and gluttony and lust and envy are eliminated...this is how the ball bounces....

I hope one day we are capable of living in a fair and balanced world...I believe it is going to be a part of our evolutionary process and if we cannot get there...we will become extinct...we WILL kill ourselves off eventually...all in the name of "stuff"...

Edited by Jeremiah65, 08 December 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Odin11]

Sakari, on 08 December 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

That I was about to post. I do not know the actual percentage they make, and I do know most are franchised. I do no Mac ( forgot last name ) who owns 4 McDonalds in the Reno are drives some sweet cars, has more then one house, and appears to be doing very, very well. I am pretty damn sure he can afford to give some higher pay, and still be living very comfortable. The problem is greed, as pointed out, these jobs ( fast food ) are now becoming jobs for people to support their families.

No one makes enough money in the " lower middle class"...teachers, Chef's, etc. to not live paycheck to paycheck.

I worked a "prevailing wage " job here for 2 years. The work I was doing was $48.00 a hour. Now, if I were doing that work at a non prevailing wage job, it would be around $15.00 a hour. How does that work?

Of course someone who has 4 McDonalds in Reno is going to have money. What is it like 5 million people go there every year? He's still probably only making around 5% profit, if that. It's the high volume of sales that makes him money. That the 4 restaurants and put them in Detroit with the same running cost and they'll be closed in a year.

[F3SS]

Jeremiah65, on 08 December 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

We have a group of customers mixed over the specifics.

That's as far as I got before I felt compelled to comment. The big problem is that customers, like supervike, fail to see the effect of such things on himself. Let's keep these "negotiations" or whatever behind closed doors and look to potentially future McDonalds commercials... Coming soon: The $14 cheeseburger meal and the all new $9 kids happy meal.
Ok that's a terrible commercial but if the consumer was informed of the side effects and not just the poor employee who wants more money I guarantee far less people would be so quick to support such insane requests.
Now, I'll get back to the rest of your post....

[Sakari]

Odin11, on 08 December 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Of course someone who has 4 McDonalds in Reno is going to have money. What is it like 5 million people go there every year? He's still probably only making around 5% profit, if that. It's the high volume of sales that makes him money. That the 4 restaurants and put them in Detroit with the same running cost and they'll be closed in a year.

Nevada ( Where Reno is )

#1 in unemployment
#1 in bankruptcy
#1 in Foreclosures


Detroits population is about 5 or 6 Reno's, if not more.

[Sakari]

-Mr_Fess-, on 08 December 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Hey man you were just blasting someone for spelling and grammar errors and your first two sentences have quite a few, but I'll digress. Do you think maybe that the problem isn't greed so much as it is reaping the benefits of success. That guy figured out how to succeed the exact same as any of his employees, neighbors, friends, acquaintances, enemies and every fellow American can do if they wanted. It's not his fault one bit for the life circumstances of any one of his employees are in. This is just a case of demonizing success. He has no gun to anyone's head keeping them in a position they don't find comfortable or otherwise and he has no rights to stop anybody from finding greener pastures and mimicking his success.
One last thing: a prevailing wage is just a nice term to describe government paying more than twice as much for the same work the private sector would pay for. Don't get me wrong, more power to you for landing such a position. I never knock anybody for finding a job making as much as they can but really it's just government waste.

Yup, because they had a  " College Education ", I do not .......And my reply was more fosicious then serious.
No, not every single American can " succeed " like he did. It depends where your sperm was deposited. People that grow up in poverty, or " lower/middle class "  do not have the money to buy franchise's or get into a business. They have to earn there own just to make a living. ( possibly working at McDonalds ). It takes money to make money, there are very, very, few " success " stories of people becoming wealthy from poverty, or from not having much money. I am sure the percentage is huge for the ones born into money


Anyway, that is getting more off topic the more I type........




Edit to add : As I typed this the advertisement on this site below my reply ...How ironic

" Make $37-$47/hr Working Online No Fees. Requirements: Must Have PC "

Edited by Sakari, 08 December 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[F3SS]

Sakari, on 08 December 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Yup, because they had a  " College Education ", I do not .......And my reply was more fosicious then serious.
No, not every single American can " succeed " like he did. It depends where your sperm was deposited. People that grow up in poverty, or " lower/middle class "  do not have the money to buy franchise's or get into a business. They have to earn there own just to make a living. ( possibly working at McDonalds ). It takes money to make money, there are very, very, few " success " stories of people becoming wealthy from poverty, or from not having much money. I am sure the percentage is huge for the ones born into money


Anyway, that is getting more off topic the more I type........




Edit to add : As I typed this the advertisement on this site below my reply ...How ironic

" Make $37-$47/hr Working Online No Fees. Requirements: Must Have PC "

About the spelling; I was just being a public defender. I'm not college educated either btw. As for being stuck how you were born is just a load of crap in America and is a big reason America came to be and came to be successful. In the old world, and plenty of places today probably but not here, you were born into a class and no matter what you wanted, how driven, talented or smart you were there was nothing you could do to remove yourself from that class label or position in life you were forced into doing and that's how you describe modern day America? We are all granted equal opportunity but not equal ability. Nobody can give you ability yet you have all the opportunity to learn one. And who cares about most rich kids anyways? They usually end up friendless, used, lonely, underachieving inheritance squandering brats anyway but not always and if they use that money to open a business you should thank them for creating jobs and opportunities for others instead of being jealous that they have more than you. Oh, well. You're a grown man. I ain't gonna change your mind.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 09 December 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[supervike]

-Mr_Fess-, on 08 December 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Go open a business. When you find a way to make extra money don't do it. Then if another opportunity arises don't take it. Welcome to your failed business that can't create jobs and likely wont sustain any either.
And there is nothing wrong with employees wanting more money. That's natural but its not their call. However, seeking and accepting the job was. $15/hr fast good wages will price fast food near or above your average decent restaurant. It'll cost more jobs than it will supply. You don't know how to run a business yet you're always one of the first to say how they should be run.

Then obviously you've missed anything I've said.  Where have I given this so called 'business' advice, please show me this?  Until you do that, lay off the personal attacks.

I've stated at least twice in this thread that the going wage is dictated by the market.  It's the same supply and demand that the business owners deal with everyday.  Magnaminous business owners don't 'allow' the workers to have a job, they NEED them for their business.  I'm telling you it's a symbiotic relationship.  I've got nothing against business owners trying to make money, and run a profitable business, so please don't paint me as a business hater.  It's just that I don't think employees are a throw away commidity.

Edited by supervike, 09 December 2012 - 12:38 AM.

[F3SS]

supervike, on 09 December 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Then obviously you've missed anything I've said.  Where have I given this so called 'business' advice, please show me this?  Until you do that, lay off the personal attacks.

I've stated at least twice in this thread that the going wage is dictated by the market.  It's the same supply and demand that the business owners deal with everyday.  Magnaminous business owners don't 'allow' the workers to have a job, they NEED them for their business.  I'm telling you it's a symbiotic relationship.  I've got nothing against business owners trying to make money, and run a profitable business, so please don't paint me as a business hater.  It's just that I don't think employees are a throw away commidity.

ok and fast food workers aren't worth $15/hr that doesn't mean they are a throw away commodity. All employees are a necessity but you can't replace a business owner who btw isn't usually under obligation to keep someone around. Working for someone is most certainly a privelage and not a right but definitely falls into the definition of allowed. People work for me because yes I need them but I also allow them to and if things aren't working out I can replace them with somebody else but they can't do that to me. And I don't think I was attacking you. Just debating.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 09 December 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[Odin11]

Sakari, on 08 December 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Nevada ( Where Reno is )

#1 in unemployment
#1 in bankruptcy
#1 in Foreclosures


Detroits population is about 5 or 6 Reno's, if not more.

Detroit's population is just over 3 times more then Reno's. But more people go through Reno every year. Plus Detroit is just behind Reno in unemployment (or should I say just ahead). My whole point was that he could not sell the amount that he does in Reno in Detroit. Thats all.

Look, I agree that they need higher wages. Its just that $15 is next to impossible whether you want to believe it or not.

[Sakari]

Odin11, on 09 December 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Detroit's population is just over 3 times more then Reno's. But more people go through Reno every year. Plus Detroit is just behind Reno in unemployment (or should I say just ahead). My whole point was that he could not sell the amount that he does in Reno in Detroit. Thats all.

Look, I agree that they need higher wages. Its just that $15 is next to impossible whether you want to believe it or not.

I do not think $15.00 is right myself. I think any job should be more then unemployment though, and noticeably more. I am not sure what it is in New York ( and not googling ). Here in Oregon it is $8.75 I believe. So, a McDonalds should be $10.00 to start, I would think.

Although, as I said also, and I think everyone agrees, it is across the board on jobs. The " cost of living " raises never did keep up with inflation. It was / is like a Top Fuel dragster racing a Volksagen Beetle. ( stock )...It is long gone, and we are way behind.

[F3SS]

Sakari, on 09 December 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

I do not think $15.00 is right myself. I think any job should be more then unemployment though, and noticeably more. I am not sure what it is in New York ( and not googling ). Here in Oregon it is $8.75 I believe. So, a McDonalds should be $10.00 to start, I would think.

Although, as I said also, and I think everyone agrees, it is across the board on jobs. The " cost of living " raises never did keep up with inflation. It was / is like a Top Fuel dragster racing a Volksagen Beetle. ( stock )...It is long gone, and we are way behind.

I agree with mst of what you're saying here but what about 16 high school kids? If they can find an above minimum wage job that's great but as someone who worked since I've been 16, 15 actually, don't you think it's important for youngsters to learn the value of a dollar. Nothing taught me the value of a dollar more than earning minimum wage for my first several years in the workforce. I bet many would agree and I understand that minimum wage sucks more when you actually learn the value and frankly can't live well on it.

[Odin11]

Sakari, on 09 December 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

I do not think $15.00 is right myself. I think any job should be more then unemployment though, and noticeably more. I am not sure what it is in New York ( and not googling ). Here in Oregon it is $8.75 I believe. So, a McDonalds should be $10.00 to start, I would think.

Although, as I said also, and I think everyone agrees, it is across the board on jobs. The " cost of living " raises never did keep up with inflation. It was / is like a Top Fuel dragster racing a Volksagen Beetle. ( stock )...It is long gone, and we are way behind.

New York is $7.25, here in Michigan its $7.40. I agree with what you are saying but I think $10 is still to high for a fast food restaurant. I mean, I have friends working in fine dinning that don't make $10, but then their boss is a jerk and keeps them more then 40 hours and does not pay them for it, so I don't think they are a good example.

Edited by Odin11, 09 December 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[Sakari]

Odin11, on 09 December 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

New York is $7.25, here in Michigan its $7.40. I agree with what you are saying but I think $10 is still to high for a fast food restaurant. I mean, I have friends working in fine dinning that don't make $10, but then their boss is a jerk and keeps them more then 40 hours and does not pay them for it, so I don't think they are a good example.

I mean here, $10.00 a hour..That is $1.25 more then minimum wage.......New York, $8.50 to start.

Man, that still is horrible.....

My wife was apprenticing with a executive Chef, they made a butt load of money on their jobs. That was catering though. But, Chris ( the chef ) was hired in San Fransisco and is making quite a bit there just being the executive chef.

I guess it depends on where you work?

Edited by Sakari, 09 December 2012 - 01:43 AM.