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Capital Punishment - For or against?


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#106    Betrayal of Humanity

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:15 PM

Have any of you who are against the death penalty lost a child to murder? Imagine knowing that the monster that murdered your child is still alive fantasizing about what they did. The victims families should be the only ones who have a say in if they get death or life in prison, but if they do not want to make the decision they can leave it up to the courts to decide.

I believe people should be punished in accordance with what they have done and prison should only be for those who have committed horrible crimes and repeat offenders, not people who evade taxes, steal etc.

The safety and well being of those who do not commit crimes should be the top priority always, not the other way around as it is these days.

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#107    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:35 PM

View PostBetrayal of Humanity, on 09 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Have any of you who are against the death penalty lost a child to murder? Imagine knowing that the monster that murdered your child is still alive fantasizing about what they did. The victims families should be the only ones who have a say in if they get death or life in prison, but if they do not want to make the decision they can leave it up to the courts to decide.
No, I haven't lost a child to murder.  If I did though, I'd be pretty angry with the person who did it.  However, can I know with absolute 100% certainty that the person who did it is the person charged with the murder?  Do I know with 100% certainty the motives he or she may have had, or that they are "fantasising" about what they did.  Another way of putting it - would I feel comfortable with the State executing a person who was later found to be innocent of murdering my child?  No.  In the face of this, I could never in good conscience support the practical application of the death penalty, even if it were as close to my heart as my own child's death.

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Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 February 2013 - 01:35 PM.

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#108    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostBetrayal of Humanity, on 09 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Have any of you who are against the death penalty lost a child to murder? Imagine knowing that the monster that murdered your child is still alive fantasizing about what they did. The victims families should be the only ones who have a say in if they get death or life in prison, but if they do not want to make the decision they can leave it up to the courts to decide.


I haven't had a child of mine murdered.. As I am a parent who would die for her own kids, if faced with the fact my kids were murdered, and all evidence including a confession from the killer was put forward,  I would hate to learn that he got off due to a technicality  because he hired a creep of a lawyer  ..  I also wouldn't like it if he was released earlier than sentenced, knowing he could go after more children.. That alone would seriously tick me off

Ironically enough, there are quite a lot of people who will vote against the death penalty, out of compassion for the criminal, claiming he has rights, more so than they would the actual victims...   One of the most ironic lines I have ever read on this subject is - "The death penalty is too harsh, I prefer to give him a more cruel sentence, like lock him up for life, he will hate that more, besides you are taking away his freedom to live, let him rot in prision "   And yet locking him up for life isn't?   .... Amazing the amount of people who fail to see the irony of that statement...Another is, - What if by chance we kill the wrong one?   In that case, open up all the cells, set all prisoners free, just in case we have locked up the wrong ones ..Lets face it, if you convict say - a man in his 50's for murder and rape, he could end up dying in prison after a long sentence, and later you find he is innocent.. It's a lot worse.  The what If off chance statements are weak considering DNA evidence is more positive in this day and age...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 February 2013 - 01:50 PM.

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#109    Betrayal of Humanity

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:53 PM

You have the right to think that way and apply life in prison. However you should not have the right to choose what other families would do in that situation. There child was murdered and it should be there right to choose death if they so want it.

Edited by Betrayal of Humanity, 09 February 2013 - 02:01 PM.

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#110    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostBetrayal of Humanity, on 09 February 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

You have the right to think that away and apply life in prison. However you should not have the right to choose what other families would do in that situation. There child was murdered and it should be there right to choose death if they so want it.
I disagree.  No one should have the Right to end the life of a human being who may one day be proven innocent of whatever crime they are accused.  There is a massive difference between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "100% knowledge of truth".  No one, EVER, can know 100% of the truth, and thus the possibility exists of a mistake to occur.

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#111    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:04 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 09 February 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

And what do you class as moderate crime?

Minor - Shop lifitng, speeding, offensive language, common assault, etc
Moderate - Burgulary, GBH, etc
Major - Rape, murder, drug dealing, paedos, etc


#112    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 09 February 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Minor - Shop lifitng, speeding, offensive language, common assault, etc
Moderate crime or Repeat Offender - Torture but dont leave any lasting damage

Many business owners like my husband  HATE thieves, but you have classed this as minor crimes?  really?  A quick fine and off ya go mate? .... BUT if the thief breaks into your home, well that means - beat the living snot out of them, as long as you don't do much damage?.....    It's OK slap on the wrist for stealing from peoples places of business but not OK to steal from peoples homes?.... Trolling is serious and causes trouble.. Tell me, where would you put trolls?   Looking at your list of how you grouped certain criminals, I am curious where you would group on line trolls?   Scare them with an education and therapy?  Or worse, one of your not so minor categories ?

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speeding

Speeding is dangerous, not just for the driver but those he or she can seriously hurt or kill.. I would stick them in the same catagory as drunk drivers and I would not fanny about with a mere fine, I would jail them and remo

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 February 2013 - 06:38 PM.

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#113    apn

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:58 AM

As a skeptic and atheist I do not think that capital punishment has any place in modern world.  Moreover, I firmly believe that prisons are not a form of punishment, but rehabilitation.  The reasoning behind committing crime should be discovered on individual basis, and solutions formed.  Additionally, I believe that every person after prison term should be given time to adjust to society under supervision of responsible experts, and after certain time of proven good behavior their conviction papers should be hidden from potential employers, banks, and other institutions.  It is despicable that a graphitti conviction at age of 16 (which is a felony in many places, including New York City) can close doors to colleges, jobs, opportunities, etc. to a 40 years old respectable member of society.  It's plainly sick.
But, I have realistic expectation from society: easy way to eradicate a human being, even if he/she is innocent, and place together criminals, so together they ponder on how to better commit crimes in the future.  However, it makes people feel better for some reason.


#114    Kazahel

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:14 AM

I already gave my thoughts on page 3 but I left out that I also believe people can change over time and so they should be given the opportunity to. Capital punishment takes away that chance.  

I do have a question though for people like Mr Walker and Mr Right Wing. When you say death and torture for drug dealers, do you mean just any dealers or the major drug importers?

Because many dealers are only dealing to support their habit. And their habit may of formed because of many reasons. So for example they might of been abused or had something very bad happen in their life and so turned to drugs as a form of escape. So to wish death or torture upon these people is extremely heartless, shortsighted and cruel. As I said above, people go through stages. They might be dealers/criminals one day but over time they can potentially change their lives around. So to take that chance away from someone is unwise imo. You are acting as if people are hopeless cases which doesnt show any faith/love at all in God or man.


#115    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:48 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 09 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Minor Crime - Fine them
Moderate crime or Repeat Offender - Torture but dont leave any lasting damage
Serious crime - Torture to death
And I don't doubt there would be plenty willing to volunteer to do the torturing?  You?


#116    ranrod

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:48 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 09 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I dont believe in prison at all.

Minor Crime - Fine them
Moderate crime or Repeat Offender - Torture but dont leave any lasting damage
Serious crime - Torture to death

Pain is far better at correcting peoples behaviour and punishing them than taking away their freedom. If you burn yourself on the iron you dont touch it again do you?
So you believe that if you take in a hardened criminal, torture him for some time, and then release him back into society that this will pacify things? ...interesting.


#117    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:23 AM

View Postranrod, on 10 February 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

So you believe that if you take in a hardened criminal, torture him for some time, and then release him back into society that this will pacify things? ...interesting.

My guess is, if you take in a criminal and torture him, then later toss him back into society, chances are he will take it out on the innocent and then some... He could make innocent people suffer because he was arrested and tortured..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 10 February 2013 - 11:24 AM.

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#118    Bonecrusher

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 09 February 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:



The last British person to be executed for witchcraft, and this may surprise you, was during WW2.
Well the Nazis were into all types of mysticism and sorcery through their SS wing.

You could well be going on about Lord Hee-Haw who might have been sent to the gallows.

Edited by Medium Brown, 10 February 2013 - 05:30 PM.

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#119    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 10 February 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

My guess is, if you take in a criminal and torture him, then later toss him back into society, chances are he will take it out on the innocent and then some... He could make innocent people suffer because he was arrested and tortured..
Exactly.  Prison itself makes some bitter; this would make them all bitter.


#120    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 09 February 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Yet it is the taking of a human life - it is an eye for an eye.  Someone always relishes the moment that life is extinguished, be it the victim's family or members of society who as an example scream "burn Bundy burn" or whoever the latest heinous serial killer at the "gallows" is.  Much of society's views about the death penalty are coloured by vengeance, we can't just cover that up.

No it certainly does not appear that way.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions though, we can always find someone to compare what we are doing and thinking to and say "I am no where near as bad for thinking as I do as that person was for acting as they do".  Doesn't change the fact that we have found within ourselves the justification to take a life in cold blood, even after years of consideration and appeal we as a society turn around and say, nope still want that life to end, there is something inherently wrong with that, many can't quite put their finger on what exactly is wrong, heck often I can't but it grates like fingernails on a blackboard to clinically as a society agree to someone's death when what we are seeking justice for is how wrong it was for that someone to kill someone else.

The many many cases of innocents being put to death, not just in the western world which has robust justice systems, but the world over for what crimes an emotionally charged populace chooses to believe is enough to snuff out another's life over are a pretty strong sign of the slippery slope believing in the death penalty leads to.  People will make the decision to end a life based on how emotionally invested they are by the crime that was done - from the Jury, the Judge and Prosecution onwards - that's what prosecutions do, appeal to people's emotions of abhorrence and hatred to enrage them to the point of believing death is justice.


People do horrible things, blood lust and rage is a common curse in society.  It is proof of how uncivilised as a society we truly are.  Would this FBI agent be the horror he was if he was not enabled by the societal sense of "fellowship" he experienced? Is he a product of what is wrong with society or born "abhorrent" in his mindset?

Is he any less a danger for being locked away for life than for being killed?  Is justice not served when we deny people the liberty to move amongst society to continue their crimes?  The difference is no-one nor society as a whole had to entertain the ending of a life as one of the decisions that they have to then live with in their lives.  I would spare anyone that, even if they are too emotionally charged to realise what it is that they are being spared.
While I can appreciate the value set underlying your position, I do not agree with it. Capital punishment is a legal consequence. It is not  vengeance and it is not an eye for an eye. In western society we take punishment and consequence out of the hands of families or victims and give it to an impartial judicial system for this very reason We have prosecutors and defenders and laws of procedure That is precisely why the death sentence is a logical  and reasonablee end product of this procedure.

Punishment should ALWAYS be delivered in "cold blood" it is the only way to ensure it is nt based on emotion or feeling

Your confusion can only exist if you equate the taking of a life by a murderer to that of the execution of that murderer. Of course ther IS no similarity The murderer took the life of an innocent He didso wth no regard t legal procedure there was no opportunity for pleading of a case or for a defence to be mounted. All the power was in the murderer's hands. And so on. No individual is sanctioned to kill women and children or in general anyone who is innocent of any wrong doing But a state is sanctioned to take a persons life in many ways; from abortion to euthanasia to sending them to war. Even a state has more legal limitations placed on it than a murderer.

It doesnt matter why a person rapes kills or harms. Unless they are seriously mentally ill, they understand consequence and they know they are doing harm and how much it will hurt others. And so they must accept the consequences of their behaviour. We have to do this because we can do it. We KNOW right from wrong and thus must be held acountable for tha t knowledge.
LAck of understanding of consequence would be one factor which would prevent the death penalty being applied.

There are a number of insurmountable problems with life time incarceration. First if it is done in a way to truly limit a persons fredom it is considered cruel and unusual punishmnet and cannot legally be aplied Most prisoners are fed sheltered and cared for  well in prisons Far beter than millions of othe rhumansveer get to be cared for Loss of liberty alone is not an adequate punishmnet for many crimes And in a way it serves no pupose criminals adjust and become acclimatised to life in prison to the point where it may be little hardship at all If all deserving criminals were imprisoed for life we would need far more prisons Most are lt out before they die

Finally to keep a prisoner in a humane condition in gaol costs a fortune Personally i do not think it reasonable for a society to bear those costs  There are about 80000 prisoners in solitary confinement in america. The UN has already officially complianed tha this is cruel and unsual punishment
http://www.guardian....ongress-prisons I dont know the costs in America but it costs about 100000 dollars per year to keep ONE prisoner in a general prison  in australia Solitary confinement would be more than this. So 8,000,000,000 dollars to keep those prisoners in solitary confinement EVERY YEAR? Maybe it is the economy of scale or maybe american prisons are a lot less amenable than  australian ones, but i just discovered that it only costs 25000 to keep an american prisoner in the general population for a year, but 80000 for  solitary confinement.

That brings the figure down to 640,000,000 dollars per year for those american prisoners in solitary confinment. It still seems a terrible waste of resources to me.

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