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Prof. Theodor Gomperz: Atlantis could be real

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#16    Proclus

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostHarte, on 07 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

First, Gomperz died long before anyone even knew how old Athens is.

Reading this it is clear that you have not understood Gomperz. Gomperz did not say that Athens is 10000 years old, but Gomperz said, that Plato said this and believed this! Note the difference! This is not the same. Because with this it is irrelevant which opinion on the age of Athens you have, it is even irrelevant how old Athens really is. It's only about the believes of Plato, right or wrong is not important. For Athens we know that Plato was wrong not only in date but also in facts. But Plato: He believed it. As he did with Atlantis! And this means: Atlantis could be a wrong composition like Plato's primeval Athens, but it could also be real!

View PostHarte, on 07 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Second, I read your linked text and found nothing but Gomperz (a Classicist, BTW, and not a scientist) repeatedly stating that The Critias is fiction.

You surely noticed that Gomperz contradicts himself to a certain extent, using the word "fiction", but then opening the question on which traditions Plato relied, and to which extent he relied on them. You cannot cite Gomperz to call Atlantis a "pure fiction", this would be a mis-citation. In the end Gomperz simply does not know it, and he confesses this implicitly. You cannot bend Gomperz to be pro or contra a real Atlantis.

The question of reality depends on the extent Plato relied on (distorted) traditions. As we can see with Plato's primeval Athens, it could be unreal, but if Plato relied on a compact Egyptian tradition it could be real. It's an open question, and that is all I wanted to show.

"science": This is an intercultural misunderstanding. In German Classical Studies are considered as science, too, as it was in the Anglo-Saxon world in former times as I read on Wikipedia, but today the meaning of "science" narrowed down to "natural science" in the Anglo-Saxon world. Please help me: How do you call a Classicist, then, if you want to express that he is a "scientist" using scientific means and standards like "historical criticism", without using the word "scientist"?

_

Edited by Proclus, 07 January 2013 - 01:33 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#17    TheSearcher

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostProclus, on 07 January 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Reading this it is clear that you have not understood Gomperz. Gomperz did not say that Athens is 10000 years old, but Gomperz said, that Plato said this and believed this! Note the difference! This is not the same. Because with this it is irrelevant which opinion on the age of Athens you have, it is even irrelevant how old Athens really is. It's only about the believes of Plato, right or wrong is not important. For Athens we know that Plato was wrong not only in date but also in facts. But Plato: He believed it. As he did with Atlantis! And this means: Atlantis could be a wrong composition like Plato's primeval Athens, but it could also be real!

You surely noticed that Gomperz contradicts himself to a certain extent, using the word "fiction", but then opening the question on which traditions Plato relied, and to which extent he relied on them. You cannot cite Gomperz to call Atlantis a "pure fiction", this would be a mis-citation. In the end Gomperz simply does not know it, and he confesses this implicitly. You cannot bend Gomperz to be pro or contra a real Atlantis.

The question of reality depends on the extent Plato relied on (distorted) traditions. As we can see with Plato's primeval Athens, it could be unreal, but if Plato relied on a compact Egyptian tradition it could be real. It's an open question, and that is all I wanted to show.

"science": This is an intercultural misunderstanding. In German Classical Studies are considered as science, too, as it was in the Anglo-Saxon world in former times as I read on Wikipedia, but today the meaning of "science" narrowed down to "natural science" in the Anglo-Saxon world. Please help me: How do you call a Classicist, then, if you want to express that he is a "scientist" using scientific means and standards like "historical criticism", without using the word "scientist"?

_

Erm sorry but....... he actually calls it over-bold fiction, which in my view is even worse than pure fiction. so in fact you don't need to bend Gomperz one way or the other. Reading this it shows that you also have some issues understanding Gomperz. Also, to be totally sure and impartial of what he actually says, you ought to read it in German, the language that it originally written in.

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#18    Proclus

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:33 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 07 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Erm sorry but....... he actually calls it over-bold fiction, which in my view is even worse than pure fiction. so in fact you don't need to bend Gomperz one way or the other. Reading this it shows that you also have some issues understanding Gomperz. Also, to be totally sure and impartial of what he actually says, you ought to read it in German, the language that it originally written in.

Look, I read it in German, I am German, and Gomperz clearly says: Plato believed in a primeval Athens, and thus in Atlantis, too. For Athens it is clear: It is not true. A self-deception of Plato. But to which extent there was a distorted tradition behind Atlantis is unknown. I am really getting angry that you pick only the words you like from Gomperz. I never did this. I always stated that Gomperz opens a question, not more.

You don't like open questions, do you?

Citations:

"Truth and fiction were blended in this narrative; but the fiction was not wholly arbitrary, and a considerable measure of self-deception preceded the deception practised on others. Plato believed that he had discovered some of the essential features of his political ideal in the dim beginnings of his native city."

"We should be glad to know how far Plato's fiction is based on popular legend; how far the belief in an extensive country in the West rests on the presupposition of a not wholly unsymmetrical distribution of land between the Eastern and Western hemispheres; how far the fact, now attested by documentary evidence, of an incursion into Libya and Egypt made by conquering "sea-nations" coming from the West. But on all these points we are left to uncertain conjecture."

In the latter quote it becomes quite clear that Gomperz is self-contradictory: He talks of "fiction" and then of "fact" - what now? An open question.

I am really getting angry about Atlantis skeptics picking only what they like. I never would do this. I do not claim that Gomperz said Atlantis was real. He did not. Why do Atlantis skeptics have such a big lack of scientific discipline? In the end Atlantis skeptics seem to be not better than certain Atlantomaniacs. Really. I cannot stand this. Always these blanket premature judgements!

_

Edited by Proclus, 07 January 2013 - 02:37 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#19    Harte

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostProclus, on 07 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Look, I read it in German, I am German, and Gomperz clearly says: Plato believed in a primeval Athens, and thus in Atlantis, too. For Athens it is clear: It is not true. A self-deception of Plato. But to which extent there was a distorted tradition behind Atlantis is unknown. I am really getting angry that you pick only the words you like from Gomperz. I never did this. I always stated that Gomperz opens a question, not more.

You don't like open questions, do you?

Citations:

"Truth and fiction were blended in this narrative; but the fiction was not wholly arbitrary, and a considerable measure of self-deception preceded the deception practised on others. Plato believed that he had discovered some of the essential features of his political ideal in the dim beginnings of his native city."

According to the linked essay, the "political ideal"  Plato thought he had discovered was what he wrote about in The Republic, not in Timaeus or Critias.

So, Gomperz is saying that Plato believed that the culture he described in The Republic was similar to Athens ancient culture.

Gomperz goes on to claim that Plato was attempting to "flesh out" the society from The Republic in the dialogues Timaeus and Critias - years later - but left off on it when the entire exercise of giving a realistic setting to the society he described in The Republic became too unscientific for Plato's tastes.

Harte

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#20    Proclus

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostHarte, on 07 January 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Gomperz goes on to claim that Plato was attempting to "flesh out" the society from The Republic in the dialogues Timaeus and Critias - years later - but left off on it when the entire exercise of giving a realistic setting to the society he described in The Republic became too unscientific for Plato's tastes.

*sigh* ... just another cherry picker ...

I give up. I don't like to explain each single step of thought again and again and more and more in detail.
That's boring.

Strange that such a short text like Gomperz' is overstraining the capacity of analysis of the forum's members. That is the reason why you cited Cameron: You never understood what Cameron said, you just only cite hime because he says things you like. Therefore you never realized the weakness and errors of his arguments. Science ... be it "natural science" or "social sciences / Humanities" works only, if you apply the principle "sine ira et studio". My hope is that the Gomperz text will turn your minds when his thoughts will sink in deeper over time. Maybe after some years you will understand?

We will see us then :-)

_

Edited by Proclus, 07 January 2013 - 10:03 PM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#21    Harte

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

View PostProclus, on 07 January 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

*sigh* ... just another cherry picker ...

I give up. I don't like to explain each single step of thought again and again and more and more in detail.
That's boring.

Strange that such a short text like Gomperz' is overstraining the capacity of analysis of the forum's members. That is the reason why you cited Cameron: You never understood what Cameron said, you just only cite hime because he says things you like. Therefore you never realized the weakness and errors of his arguments. Science ... be it "natural science" or "social sciences / Humanities" works only, if you apply the principle "sine ira et studio". My hope is that the Gomperz text will turn your minds when his thoughts will sink in deeper over time. Maybe after some years you will understand?

We will see us then :-)
*sigh* ... just another poster with poor reading comprehension.

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#22    Proclus

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:35 PM

Let me take the opportunity of this nice thread on Prof. Theodor Gomperz to present you just another Austrian Professor in favour of the existence of Atlantis, this time his publication is more recent, from 1951:

It is Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Brandenstein, expert linguist for ancient languages.
His conclusion from a literary analysis: This is not just invented, there is a real place of Atlantis.
http://www.atlantis-...nstein_engl.htm

Thank you for your attention.

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#23    Swede

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:31 PM

View PostProclus, on 24 May 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Let me take the opportunity of this nice thread on Prof. Theodor Gomperz to present you just another Austrian Professor in favour of the existence of Atlantis, this time his publication is more recent, from 1951:

It is Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Brandenstein, expert linguist for ancient languages.
His conclusion from a literary analysis: This is not just invented, there is a real place of Atlantis.
http://www.atlantis-...nstein_engl.htm

Thank you for your attention.

_

And Brandenstein (writing some 62+ years ago) concluded that the "Atlantis War" occurred between 1700 BC and 1200 BC. And that "Atlantis" was Crete.

Which brings us (hypothetically) back to Santorini. Which is not consistent with Plato's description.

.


#24    jaylemurph

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:42 PM

View PostProclus, on 05 January 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

1) Gomperz was a renowned classical scholar, i.e. a scientist on the field of classical studies, translated immediately into English, read by many intellectuals of his time. And he was a philosopher, too.
2) The book was published in 1902, to be precise. Important is, that his thoughts have weight.

So, not misleading at all.
Or did you expect Atlantis research to have made big progress since 1902? *smile*

What is your opinion on Gomperz' thoughts?


.

To say a Classical scholar is a scientist /is/ deliberately misleading. Scientists work in the realm of science -- that is to say, the realm of hard data and facts. Classical scholars work in the realm of the humanities -- that is to say, the realm of human activites, which exists without the realm of hard data and facts. His is an opinion, and an opinion three-quarters of a century away from any current consensus.

Not that there /is/ any current consensus amongst scholars and historians about a real Atlantis (not even Classicists deal with fiction like it was reality), which is probably why you were reduced to fact-mining from the last century. Which process is, on its face, relatively ludicrous. I'm sure you'd concede there's all manner of German research both in the sciences and humanities from that time period which should be looked at in askance.

Is there any other news/science from the last century you can keep us up to date with? Canals on Mars? Phrenology? Eugenics? I'm sure you can find papers from the keenest minds of the 1920s to support these ideas and not a single 21rst Century voice to oppose them, so they must be valid, right?

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#25    Proclus

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:59 PM

@jaylemurph:

> To say a Classical scholar is a scientist /is/ deliberately misleading.

Classics and Philology is a science, at least in German speaking countries. Maybe Anglo-Saxons consider it to be hocus-pocus? Why then professors teaching this hocus-pocus at universities? A definition of science which excludes most important parts of research only because you can't "measure" or "calculate" things sucks. Call it whatever you want, important is: It is rational and reasonable. Not just "opinions" - how crazy is this? You don't like the humanities, don't you?!

> not even Classicists deal with fiction like it was reality

An intolerant prejudice. You surely know the academic discussions on Platonic Myths and that they could contain a core of truth, sometimes? Or don't you? Could it be that you have no clue about what you are talking?

> why you were reduced to fact-mining from the last century.

Hopefully you are aware that Atlantis research is a very patient science, information from 65 years ago can be very helpful. Therefore academic articles of this time are still cited in current scientific literature - ah, you are surely aware of this. And "fact-mining" is the very beginning of every science. How can anyone state anything on Atlantis without "fact-mining"? Do you have a problem with "fact-mining"?

> Is there any other news/science from the last century you can keep us up to date with? Canals on Mars? Phrenology? Eugenics?
> I'm sure you can find papers from the keenest minds of the 1920s to support these ideas and not a single 21rst Century voice
> to oppose them, so they must be valid, right?

Surely you realize that your argument is nonsense because Brandenstein is far from the "canals on Mars" level and everybody knows without me talking about it that there is opposition.

Would you please be so kind to put on your friendly face? Again I did not want to claim anything special but just wanted to give this forum's readers the opportunity to read something they do not read every day. Is this forbidden, here? Hopefully not.

Ha, you even didn't realize that the provided article on Brandenstein contains criticism on Brandenstein's thesis *laugh*
You just hacked into your keyboard without thinking: that's your "science", am I right?

_

Edited by Proclus, 25 May 2013 - 12:05 AM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#26    DieChecker

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:02 AM

I don't believe that Plato thought Atlantis was a real place. What I do believe is that Plato drew on 4 or 5 real life places to build his example city for his Dialogs. Santorini/Thera, Cadiz in Spain, several cities that sank due to earthquakes.... all add up to equal Atlantis.

Just like in the comic books Superman lives in Metropolis, yet no real Metropolis exists, but no one has a problem identifying the fictional city as New York.

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#27    Proclus

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 26 May 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

I don't believe that Plato thought Atlantis was a real place. What I do believe is that Plato drew on 4 or 5 real life places to build his example city for his Dialogs. Santorini/Thera, Cadiz in Spain, several cities that sank due to earthquakes.... all add up to equal Atlantis.

Just like in the comic books Superman lives in Metropolis, yet no real Metropolis exists, but no one has a problem identifying the fictional city as New York.
That's a possibility, thank you. Prof. Massimo Pallottino (maybe I will translate an article on him into English, soon) started with the very same method as Brandenstein (inspired by him) but came to a similar result you present here - with one exception: That Plato did not realize that his sources talked of different places. So according to Pallottino, Plato believed Atlantis to be real, but it wasn't.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#28    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

View PostProclus, on 05 January 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Let's leave it to everybody to read the wikipedia article on Gomperz:
http://en.wikipedia....Theodor_Gomperz

Well ... you do a lot to shroud the important thing: That Plato himself believed that his account had a historical kernel. Gomperz concludes this from an analysis of Plato's work and the historical context of it. This is the crucial point. Not this "material science" stuff ("archaeological, geological, genetic, and environmental research").

This then is the root for the question: Which tradition was it, on which Plato based his story? This is the question you carefully avoid with your "material science" talk.



Exactly this is not the case.
It's maybe the realm of error, but surely not the realm of pure fantasy.

_

Traces of  the 'traditions' Plato thought about can be found in his other works, this part very much like Atlantis, from The Laws, Book III

Ath. Do you believe that there is any truth in ancient traditions?
Cle. What traditions?
Ath. The traditions about the many destructions of mankind which have been occasioned by deluges and pestilences, and in many other ways, and of the survival of a remnant?

Cle. Every one is disposed to believe them.
Ath. Let us consider one of them, that which was caused by the famous deluge.

Cle. What are we to observe about it?
Ath. I mean to say that those who then escaped would only be hill shepherds-small sparks of the human race preserved on the tops of mountains.

Cle. Clearly.
Ath. Such survivors would necessarily be unacquainted with the arts and the various devices which are suggested to the dwellers in cities  by interest or ambition, and with all the wrongs which they contrive against one another.

Cle. Very true.
Ath. Let us suppose, then, that the cities in the plain and on the sea-coast were utterly destroyed at that time.

Cle. Very good.
Ath. Would not all implements have then perished and every other excellent invention of political or any other sort of wisdom have utterly disappeared?

http://classics.mit....laws.3.iii.html

I believe this next part is a clue to what his ideas are on laws and his Atlantis dialogues - Dardania is a 3rd form of government, after 2 previous deluges - so the deluge of Atlantis is a 1st form of government, is how I'd interpret it.

Yes, that would be the natural order of things.
Ath. Then, now let us speak of a third form of government, in which all other forms and conditions of polities and cities concur.

Cle. What is that?
Ath. The form which in fact Homer indicates as following the second. This third form arose when, as he says, Dardanus founded Dardania:

For not as yet had the holy Ilium been built on the plain to be a city of speaking men; but they were still dwelling at the foot of many-fountained Ida. For indeed, in these verses, and in what he said of the Cyclopes, he speaks the words of God and nature; for poets are a divine race and often in their strains, by the aid of the Muses and the Graces, they attain truth.


Edited by The Puzzler, 26 May 2013 - 09:14 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#29    Proclus

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:14 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 26 May 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Traces of  the 'traditions' Plato thought about can be found in his other works, this part very much like Atlantis, from The Laws, Book III

Ath. Do you believe that there is any truth in ancient traditions?
Cle. What traditions?
Ath. The traditions about the many destructions of mankind which have been occasioned by deluges and pestilences, and in many other ways, and of the survival of a remnant?

Cle. Every one is disposed to believe them.
Ath. Let us consider one of them, that which was caused by the famous deluge.

Cle. What are we to observe about it?
Ath. I mean to say that those who then escaped would only be hill shepherds-small sparks of the human race preserved on the tops of mountains.

Cle. Clearly.
Ath. Such survivors would necessarily be unacquainted with the arts and the various devices which are suggested to the dwellers in cities  by interest or ambition, and with all the wrongs which they contrive against one another.

Cle. Very true.
Ath. Let us suppose, then, that the cities in the plain and on the sea-coast were utterly destroyed at that time.

Cle. Very good.
Ath. Would not all implements have then perished and every other excellent invention of political or any other sort of wisdom have utterly disappeared?
http://classics.mit....laws.3.iii.html

Very good point. Scientists (am I allowed to call them scientists? "Academicians"?) talk of serious Platonic Philosophy of cyclic history in case of the 10000 years in the Laws, but they talk of invention and deception in case of the 9000 years of the Atlantis story - although it is quite the same theory. This proofs nothing, except that prevailing ideas of science on Plato's Atlantis (that it is just an invention) may be wrong and asking questions is allowed.

Whereas bold screaming "that it is easy to see that it is fiction" is simply primitive. No, it is not easy to see. Not at all. That's why professors like Wilhelm Brandenstein came to different conclusions.
http://www.atlantis-...nstein_engl.htm

_

Edited by Proclus, 26 May 2013 - 09:16 AM.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#30    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:23 AM

If the flood of Dardanus is the 3rd flood and form of government, Dardania (Troy), the 2nd is possiblythe eruption of Thera,  - the 1st form of Government probably arose in Atlantis and is what Plato is really trying to convey, imo.


Sounding like the Athenians...

How would that be?
Ath. In the first place, the desolation of these primitive men would create in them a feeling of affection and good-will towards one another; and, secondly, they would have no occasion to quarrel about their subsistence, for they would have pasture in abundance, except just at first, and in some particular cases; and from their pasture-land they would obtain the greater part of their food in a primitive age, having plenty of milk and flesh; moreover they would procure other food by the chase, not to be despised either in quantity or quality. They would also have abundance of clothing, and bedding, and dwellings, and utensils either capable of standing on the fire or not; for the plastic and weaving arts do not require any use of iron: and God has given these two arts to man in order to provide him with all such things, that, when reduced to the last extremity, the human race may still grow and increase. Hence in those days mankind were not very poor; nor was poverty a cause of difference among them; and rich they could not have been, having neither gold nor silver:-such at that time was their condition. And the community which has neither poverty nor riches will always have the noblest principles; in it there is no insolence or  injustice, nor, again, are there any contentions or envyings. And therefore they were good, and also because they were what is called simple-minded; and when they were told about good and evil, they in their simplicity believed what they heard to be very truth and practised it. No one had the wit to suspect another of a falsehood, as men do now; but what they heard about Gods and men they believed to be true, and lived accordingly; and therefore they were in all respects such as we have described them.

Cle. That quite accords with my views, and with those of my friend here.

Ath. Would not many generations living on in a simple manner, although ruder, perhaps, and more ignorant of the arts generally, and in particular of those of land or naval warfare, and likewise of other arts, termed in cities legal practices and party conflicts, and including all conceivable ways of hurting one another in word and deed;-although inferior to those who lived before the deluge, or to the men of our day in these respects, would they not, I say, be simpler and more manly, and also more temperate and altogether more just? The reason has been already explained.

Cle. Very true.
Ath. I should wish you to understand that what has preceded and what is about to follow, has been, and will be said, with the intention of explaining what need the men of that time had of laws, and who was their lawgiver.


Edited by The Puzzler, 26 May 2013 - 09:40 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...





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