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Hinduism and Aryan


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#1    me-wonders

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

We hear of Aryans throughout history.  Hinduism of Vedic culture is Aryan.  Who are these people?  Where did they come from?   They are mixed into other cultures as well, and I would like to handle their influence on each culture separately, beginning with Hinduism.  

http://suite101.com/...influence-a8025

Argument against Aryans being responsible for Hinduism, stating the religion existed before they arrived.

http://suite101.com/...ization-a174848

Because this thread is sort of coming from the Ice age thread, which involves a question of aliens. it might be fun to speculate about if the ancient writing speaks of a nuclear war between aliens?  Then identify the area on earth where such a war could have occurred.  This should tickle your curiosity.



Quote

History's lost lesson: Ancient nuclear war among Indus Valley ...

theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/.../historys-lost-lesson-ancient-n...
Jul 20, 2011 – Another curious sign of an ancient nuclear war in India is a giant crater near Bombay (above). The nearly circular 2,154-metre-diameter Lonar ...


Edited by me-wonders, 17 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.


#2    Harte

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:16 AM

Current thought is that Ayrans were not a distinct "people." Rather they were likely originally members of one of the tribes present in India back then, and the name came to be used as an identifier, eventually as an identifier of people who really follow the Hindu tradition, rather than those who just go through the motions.

That's the way the word is used in the Rig Veda, as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Aryan later came to represent a language group and in that context it is no longer generally used - being replaced by the term Indo-European.

Harte

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#3    me-wonders

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:54 AM

View PostHarte, on 18 November 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Current thought is that Ayrans were not a distinct "people." Rather they were likely originally members of one of the tribes present in India back then, and the name came to be used as an identifier, eventually as an identifier of people who really follow the Hindu tradition, rather than those who just go through the motions.

That's the way the word is used in the Rig Veda, as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Aryan later came to represent a language group and in that context it is no longer generally used - being replaced by the term Indo-European.

Harte

The link says the Aryans may have migrated from Russia during the ice age to Persia, then from Persia to India, and don't we know them as the Germans?  Like your explanation seems to leave a lot unsaid.  However, in your defense skimming through explanations of Aryans, many focus on the language and the Aryan India connection.  Then I came to this http://iranpoliticsc...aps01/index.htm


Posted Image

This goes with notions I have long held, but I could be wrong.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.


#4    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 18 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

The link says the Aryans may have migrated from Russia during the ice age to Persia, then from Persia to India, and don't we know them as the Germans?  Like your explanation seems to leave a lot unsaid.

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

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#5    Abramelin

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:56 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

It started almost a century before the Nazis: http://en.wikipedia....hur_de_Gobineau

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 November 2012 - 07:56 AM.


#6    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:52 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 18 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

This goes with notions I have long held, but I could be wrong.
And as there is no definitive proof for or against, you could be correct. Though looking at your map, I would put the start point for your migration lines right on top of where the number 5 is. Seems like a nice place to me, there on the river Irtysh, very nice :)

And from Midgard the migrations begin
Posted Image

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 18 November 2012 - 09:13 AM.


#7    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

To add to this the Indo-European language family appears to have originated in Anatolia c.8000 - 9500 BP and the genetics involved in the distribution of peoples in India both show no "Aryan Invasion - c.1500 BC" as such and grossly predate any alleged involvement by same by at least several millenia.

http://www.sciencema...y=9/I0UU0.eTrdQ

http://www.ncbi.nlm....74/pdf/main.pdf

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#8    me-wonders

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:35 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

The term "Aryan" as an identifier long precedes its connotations with Germany. The two must not be confused. Strictly speaking it's an antiquated term: Harte is correct about the preferable and more accurate term Indo-European. I can't say it for a fact, but it may have been Nazi Germany's twisted concept of "Aryan" that led to its diminished used in proper historical studies.

I have a problem with this reluctance to use the word Aryan.  One reason begins with the explanations of history that involve the influence of Aryans who migrated to different areas.  What do we do, just ignore these accounts of history?

Aryan Christianity was more influenced by Egyptian cosmology than Roman Catholicism, and in Russian was Orthodox Christianity.  These different Christian belief systems, had consequences, and what happens if we just ignore this?   When we ignore cause and effect, life appears much more chaotic than it is.    We can not rule with reason, when we do not understand the reasoning.


#9    me-wonders

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:44 PM

There is gene research that does prove the Aryans did invade.   http://www.davidicke...read.php?t=5665

And wikipedia says  "Aryan /ˈɛərjən/ is an English language loanword derived from the Sanskrit ārya ('Noble').[1][2][3] In present-day academia, the terms "Indo-Iranian" and "Indo-European" have, according to many, made most uses of the term 'Aryan' minimal, and 'Aryan' is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term "Indo-Aryan" for Indic languages and their speakers."

Putting together the gene research and the Sanskrit word for "noble", we have a story to tell.

More interesting to me is the possibility that Vedic literature tells of nuclear war, and the scientific evidence that this is possible.  But this is a whole different story from the one of the genetic and political consequences of an Aryan invasion.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 November 2012 - 09:52 PM.


#10    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 18 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

There is gene research that does prove the Aryans did invade.   http://www.davidicke...read.php?t=5665

And wikipedia says  "Aryan /ˈɛərjən/ is an English language loanword derived from the Sanskrit ārya ('Noble').[1][2][3] In present-day academia, the terms "Indo-Iranian" and "Indo-European" have, according to many, made most uses of the term 'Aryan' minimal, and 'Aryan' is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term "Indo-Aryan" for Indic languages and their speakers."

Putting together the gene research and the Sanskrit word for "noble", we have a story to tell.

More interesting to me is the possibility that Vedic literature tells of nuclear war, and the scientific evidence that this is possible.  But this is a whole different story from the one of the genetic and political consequences of an Aryan invasion.

The only thing that that proves is you shouldn't be getting your outdated sources from a fringe site.

cormac

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#11    me-wonders

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:31 PM

Actually I am coming from a lecture by a highly respected college professor, who explains the result of an Aryan invasion, but I can't copy and paste that lecture.  Given the great amount of controversy over Aryans, where they came from and which cultures they influenced, you might be a little more diplomatic when disagreeing with someone, and it would be helpful if you clarify what your disagreement is.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 November 2012 - 10:33 PM.


#12    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

1)  Of the 90 sources in your Wiki link the majority are over 10 years old and have been superceded by more current studies which show there was no "Aryan Invasion" into India.

2)  Is not evidence of any kind of 'invasion' as is most commonly presented. And in regards to originating north of Persia actually says:

Quote

On the basis of above facts, the theory of Aryan migration from north toward the present Persia and Asia Minor does not seem feasible. What is more probable is that Aryans are native people who lived on this land due to its most favorable living conditions since antiquity. This is supported by abundant traces of civilizations found while there is no trace of any similar settlements in any nearby places.

3)  Some anonymous persons blog isn't evidence of anything than their own personal belief.

4)  Nice pictures, but they don't prove the claim of Aryan Invasion.

5)  Has nothing to do with Aryan Invasions into India.

6)  1920's beliefs in "Pre" Indo-Aryans have no bearing on what we know now about the genetics of the people involved, which doesn't substantiate those earlier beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.

7)  With the exception of the first sentence most of this is meaningless and has been shown to be incorrect several times over.

8)  Links based solely on Wikipedia are of no real use to the discussion.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#13    me-wonders

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

1)  Of the 90 sources in your Wiki link the majority are over 10 years old and have been superceded by more current studies which show there was no "Aryan Invasion" into India.

2)  Is not evidence of any kind of 'invasion' as is most commonly presented. And in regards to originating north of Persia actually says:



3)  Some anonymous persons blog isn't evidence of anything than their own personal belief.

4)  Nice pictures, but they don't prove the claim of Aryan Invasion.

5)  Has nothing to do with Aryan Invasions into India.

6)  1920's beliefs in "Pre" Indo-Aryans have no bearing on what we know now about the genetics of the people involved, which doesn't substantiate those earlier beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.

7)  With the exception of the first sentence most of this is meaningless and has been shown to be incorrect several times over.

8)  Links based solely on Wikipedia are of no real use to the discussion.

cormac

Okay trash this thread.   Obviously we are not going to fun with it.


#14    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:50 AM

View PostHarte, on 18 November 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Current thought is that Ayrans were not a distinct "people." Rather they were likely originally members of one of the tribes present in India back then, and the name came to be used as an identifier, eventually as an identifier of people who really follow the Hindu tradition, rather than those who just go through the motions.

That's the way the word is used in the Rig Veda, as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Aryan later came to represent a language group and in that context it is no longer generally used - being replaced by the term Indo-European.

Harte
Indo Saraswat would be more appropriate then Indo-European.


#15    araxia

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 18 November 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:


And as there is no definitive proof for or against, you could be correct. Though looking at your map, I would put the start point for your migration lines right on top of where the number 5 is. Seems like a nice place to me, there on the river Irtysh, very nice :)

And from Midgard the migrations begin
Posted Image

Are you saying that the Aryans are the Israelites? The migrating Chosen ones? Looks like they left Egypt (Babylon) for India to breathe... From the desert to The place of abundant waters..





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