62 replies to this topic

[and then]

Copen, on 18 February 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I sort of think you have misread that scripture. "...in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as from the beginning of the creation."

The scoffers will be New Testament believers in Christ. For no atheist would claim the "beginning of the creation." They are into evolution. And they would never claim the church fathers, (who taught the 2nd coming), as their fathers.

Yuuup! Things are going to get much worse for Christians. And many Christians will become scoffers. In fact, many Christians are a part of the harlot of Revelation. For God says, "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, least you be partakers of her sins." Many Christians are so blind they don't recognize the harlot, selling herself and accumulating earthly wealth and political clout. When did Paul have to beg Christians to give him money so he could continue his ministry???? If God calls one to the ministry, can't He pay the fare????? And what disciple or apostle built such a wealthy estate with his preaching and selling religious trinkets and idols that he handed it down to his son to hold the wealth and continue to preach-- such as John Hagee, and Billy Graham?????

By the way, Daniel's beast was fulfilled with Jesus' first coming. There was no break at the ankle of Daniel's beast with a 2,000 year gap. There is not going to be a Revived Roman Empire. Jesus was the stone carved out of Mt. Zion not carved by man's hands when dashed against Decapolis (ten city/district) which had so much power they minted their own coins and were so pagan they were in conflict with the Israelites (the clay). This was the principal area Jesus preached. After this Stone dashed on the toes, Daniel's beast crumbled. That's the end of Daniel's beast. The EU was not begun in Rome. It is not now headquartered in Rome, and there are not 10 principal nations which are running that thing. In fact, they are likely to go bankrupt like Greece which is also a member of the EU.

I think it more likely to be Germany to watch, (not Russia), which will be the beast that had a mortal wound to the head and came back to life. WWII was supposed to have killed it dead. But Germany seems to be coming back to life. Same goes for the Islamic religion. It seemed to be dead after Queen Isabella defeated the Turks in 1400's. But it has come back to life. And watch the beast/empire with two horns like a lamb. That can be none other than a confederacy of United States and Israel. The two horns being the Judeo/Christian religion. The number of it name is 666. UNITED=6; STATES=6; ISRAEL=6. It brings fire down from heaven in the sight of men. That has already happened. The atomic bomb..... It didn't go up from earth on a rocket. It came down from heaven from an airplane.
God bless us all is my prayer.

Atheists especially love to point out that Christians are deluded and use as proof the continued belief in Christ's return at any moment.  They disqualify this belief based on the time that has passed since the promise was made.  Just as you are doing. But yes, I agree that many Christians will fall away from the faith in the end. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just to offer a different perspective from the norm here at UM.  I mean no offense to anyone.

[libstaK]

and then, on 18 February 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Libstak I was attempting some humor there.  You have to admit the predominant response here is anti religion.  I take no offense from the views of others and in expressing my views hope to challenge them also to exam what they believe.  Two way street you know?  BTW Camping is a bad example for Christians who are even slightly biblically literate.  Most Christians I know just roll their eyes and shake their heads when they hear another "pastor" giving dates for the return of Christ.  It's non scriptural and an embarrassment.

Point taken - although the humour was not brought out as obviously as it could have been - sarcastic wit can be mistaken I guess. Probably not unwarranted by you either, there has certainly been a number of skeptical types "shouting down" those who have a view not specifically scientifically supported, particularly in the realm of the paranormal and spiritual experience.  Some skeptisism is healthy but I believe we shouldn't silence the voices of those who have unexplained experiences or alternative views, I think in the long run we are poorer for it - unless, of course, we actually do know everything there is to know unequivocally - hmm.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Guyver, on 17 February 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

There's an interesting distinction between Christianity and every other religion, or belief system that I'm aware. Are you familiar with it?

Because, if there is a distinction between all of the thousands of religions that exist out there, and the one that claims to be true...then it's quite possible that there is something to the claim.  Don't you think?

No. Not at all. I see not one reason to consider christianity above any other religious belief system, nor do I see a distinction between it and other religions that claim to be the true one.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 18 February 2012 - 08:57 AM.

[Mr Walker]

I think the most telling thing about many on the list is what it says about modern peoples PERCEPTION of our current society, compared with those within living memories.

Our current world IS  worse than our recent past, in many respects.  I lived in a time when no one locked their house doors, and people left their keys in their cars when they parked them down the street or at home. Where, if you lost a wallet in the street it would be returned to you intact. Where you could walk the streets at night in safety, and where obscene language was never heard, except among certain groups of working men. Where childen were attentive  self disciplined able to concentrate at a task for long periods and respectful of the knowledge and wisdoms of their elders; including parents grandparents aunts and uncles but also all authority figures. Where serious crimes were almost unheard of, and families were generally well ordered  self sustaining and productive.

It is easy to factually look back and see a deterioration in many real indicators of society. That doesnt mean the end is nigh. Societies go in cycles, and we will revert again to a more disciplined social order. One can see this happening in education systems, where teaching is reverting to methods not used since the 1960s and where the rules of language, gramar etc are again becoming important.
My  great grandparents, grandaparents, and parents, never found the next generation disrespectful or difficult, because basically we each "inherited" simlar attitudes and values and so there was n conflict between generations

[Copen]

and then, on 18 February 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Atheists especially love to point out that Christians are deluded and use as proof the continued belief in Christ's return at any moment.  They disqualify this belief based on the time that has passed since the promise was made.  Just as you are doing. But yes, I agree that many Christians will fall away from the faith in the end. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just to offer a different perspective from the norm here at UM.  I mean no offense to anyone.

Sorry, I did not make myself understandable. I in no way disqualify the belief that Jesus will return. I was trying to show that one of the signs being used to indicate His second coming has been misinterpreted.  Was trying to show that the woman (spiritual Israel - the New Testament church) that went into the wilderness and was preserved for a time, and times and half a time (1800 years) is the same woman now morphed into the harlot that comes out of the wilderness and rides a dragon. This same church will be getting cleaned up through persecution. If the Jews misunderstood so many things, it is likely the New Testament church has missed some important things as well. Christians need to come out of the harlot church that sells herself and begs for money and gets wealthy selling religious trinkets and idols. Have you seen pictures of the mansions and bodyguards some of these preachers have?????? When did Paul hire bodyguards?????

Yes, there were signs that were being understood by many before He came the first time. The Messiah was being anticipated and preached by the Prophetess Anna. But most Jews such as the disciples were expecting a conquering king.

The historian Josephus mentions Jesus in his writings and about the uprising against Roman rule about 66 A.D. His writings are not scripture. They verify Jesus came.

I definitely believe we are in the last days, but the farmer, Jesus, is not coming until after the later rain. (James 5:7) That means a mighty revival. The first rain came on Pentecost. There are several things that must happen before He will return. One is the two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, have to come, preach, be killed and lie in the street of Jerusalem for three days, come back to life and ascend into heaven.
God bless us all

[Rlyeh]

Mr Walker, on 19 February 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

My  great grandparents, grandaparents, and parents, never found the next generation disrespectful or difficult, because basically we each "inherited" simlar attitudes and values and so there was n conflict between generations

Sounds like BS is inherited too.

"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint".
- Hesiod


"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
- Plato

[Mr Walker]

Rlyeh, on 19 February 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

Sounds like BS is inherited too.

"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint".
- Hesiod


"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
- Plato

I am aware of those quotations. They were probably accurate and refleted the conditions of the times.  In both cases the civilizations which hosted those people collapsed.  

My point was about what it says about our civilization today, when people worry about the end of civilization. Today we are in a period like those talked about in the quotes you give, but for well over 100 years in my family's experience, and in  european society generally, children learned from, and respected, their parents. The causation of this dichotomy and concern, is the rapid change in a society, where children no longer value or respect the expertise and learned wisdoms of earlier generations.

My parents grandparents and great geandparents were learned and wise. I, and my age group, respected them, and their ethics and values Thus they did not see society collpasing, but just going on as usual.

I teach many adolescents, and today few have the virtues and qualities of earlier generations  because they are not taught them.

William Golding made this very clear in his book "lord of the fies"  as compared to the qualities and skills of the young men of the same age in "coral island," which Golding set out to satirise.

[Seeker79]

Nothing is increasing except maby knowledge. Media coverage makes it seem like things are more, but in truth all those things are business as usual.

Edited by Seeker79, 19 February 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[Ron Jeremy]

I don't take the Book of Revelation seriously. But sometimes it can read like an invasion scenario than a story of salvation and judgment. When I was reading the part of Jesus landing on Megiddo, the whole scene read like some hideous alien general with a lot of tattoos descending on an earthy battlefield.

[Bluefinger]

Rlyeh, on 16 February 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

They were pretty pathetic actually.

Increasing instability of nature? Like Ice ages, asteroid impact, supervolcanos.. oh wait.

Increasing immorality, violence? Have you bothered to look what actions were acceptable throughout human history?

Increasing paganism? As compared to well.. when most religions were pagan?

Increasing knowledge? Oh please. Humans learn, therefore its the end times.

Computer technology.
Television.
Virtual reality.

Yeah, those verses clearly spoke of these things. You're grasping at straws.

I think the fall of the papacy is a sign for out times.

[Bluefinger]

Ron Jeremy, on 20 February 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I don't take the Book of Revelation seriously. But sometimes it can read like an invasion scenario than a story of salvation and judgment. When I was reading the part of Jesus landing on Megiddo, the whole scene read like some hideous alien general with a lot of tattoos descending on an earthy battlefield.

Pretty much.  It kinda counters many peoples' perseptions that Jesus is a hippie.  Rev. 17 demonstrates that people go to war with Christ.  If you go to www.if-jesus-returns-kill-him-again.com it might seem more possible.

I honestly think that the fall of the Roman Church will be included in this war.

[Ron Jeremy]

Bluefinger, on 20 February 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

I think the fall of the papacy is a sign for out times.

The problem is that there is no earthy entity that is capable of systematically persecute Roman Catholic Church. Seriously, can anyone obliterate a billion-parish-strong organization from the face of the Earth?

[and then]

Ron Jeremy, on 20 February 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

The problem is that there is no earthy entity that is capable of systematically persecute Roman Catholic Church. Seriously, can anyone obliterate a billion-parish-strong organization from the face of the Earth?

A billion is an exaggeration of course but I agree that presently there is no entity up to the challenge.  But the church is made up of people just like all earthly organizations and could become vulnerable with the wrong leadership.  Or if a doctrine were introduced into the world that took support from the church on a massive scale.  I'm not Catholic or anti Catholic but many believe the church to be a personification of human corruption of the faith given by God to man.  If that was true then God Himself might take aim at them and THAT would be a bad thing for them.

Cheers

[Bluefinger]

Ron Jeremy, on 20 February 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

The problem is that there is no earthy entity that is capable of systematically persecute Roman Catholic Church. Seriously, can anyone obliterate a billion-parish-strong organization from the face of the Earth?

Well, yes.  Its one of those scenarios that if you kill the shepherd, the flock will scatter.  It is called the Roman Church because the Church is in Rome and its bishop heads it.  1 billion people don't live in Rome.  

So, if Rome is destroyed and its bishopry ended, what will it be called after that?  The Church Formally Known As Rome?  

[Beckys_Mom]

Bluefinger, on 20 February 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

So, if Rome is destroyed and its bishopry ended, what will it be called after that?  The Church Formally Known As Rome?  

Ha ha   I found that pretty funny..like the artist formerly known as  prince lol