92 replies to this topic

[ExpandMyMind]

http://www.huffingto..._n_2142045.html

Quote

An Israeli peace activist has come forward with a blockbuster claim about the assassination of Hamas leader Ahmed Jabari that, if true, would represent a major twist in the recent escalation of conflicts between Israeli and Palestinian forces.
Gershon Baskin, who has reportedly mediated between Israel and Hamas in the past, told Haaretz on Thursday that Jabari, at the time of his death, had just received a draft of a "permanent truce agreement with Israel."

http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.478085

Quote

Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.
Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.
"I think that they have made a strategic mistake," Baskin said, an error "which will cost the lives of quite a number of innocent people on both sides."

If this is true it is actually quite mind blowing. It is further proof that peace is the last thing the Israeli Govt wants.

This is the sort of situation that Hamas had for years been moving towards: long term peace. And I have been saying for years now that violent Hamas is far preferable to the Israeli Govt than peaceful Hamas.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 16 November 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Dan'O]

So they were wanting to dump their rockets on Israel before this truce because they would soon not need them?

[The New Richard Nixon]

Dan, on 16 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

So they were wanting to dump their rockets on Israel before this truce because they would soon not need them?

No Israel was wanting to dump thier weapons on Gaza

[OverSword]

There are probably factions on both sides that desire peace and also faction on both sides that just want to kill each other.

[Dan'O]

The New Richard Nixon, on 16 November 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Israel was wanting to dump thier weapons on Gaza

After all those rocket attacks I am not surprised.

[meryt-tetisheri]

Jabari was no angel, he is widely believed to have been responsible for the shooting of 16 unarmed Egyptian soldiers in Sinai a couple of months ago while they were breaking their Ramadan fast. Receiving a truce draft is one thing, being actually willing to abide by it is another. Judging by the ruthless way he had his guns turned on 'friends & allies', I suspect there could have been more to his assassination than a simple strategic mistake.

[Corp]

Indeed. Getting a copy of a truce is one thing, showing any signs of wanting to put it in place is quite another. This is hardly proof that Israel is only to blame. There were rocket attacks coming out of Gaza long before Israel decided to flip the table and try to stop them so that puts just as much blame for the current situation on Hamas. It just adds to a tragic situation. Though be nice to know the actual details of this truce deal.

[spud the mackem]

So they fire rockets at Israel then shout "We want to be friends",then get annoyed when Israel retaliates.

[ExpandMyMind]

Dan, on 16 November 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

After all those rocket attacks I am not surprised.

spud the mackem, on 16 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

So they fire rockets at Israel then shout "We want to be friends",then get annoyed when Israel retaliates.

So they occupy the Palestinians for over 40 years continuously shouting "We want to be friends", then get annoyed when Hamas retaliates.



I find it strange how so many manage to completely reverse cause and effect.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 16 November 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[The New Richard Nixon]

spud the mackem, on 16 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

So they fire rockets at Israel then shout "We want to be friends",then get annoyed when Israel retaliates.

Israel wants to wipe out any anti Israeli people

[meryt-tetisheri]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

So they occupy the Palestinians for over 40 years continuously shouting "We want to be friends", then get annoyed when Hamas retaliates.



I find it strange how so many manage to completely reverse cause and effect.

Any government, including Hamas, is responsible for safeguarding the lives of its citizens. Before taking actions which are certain to elicit retaliatory responses from Israel, they should have first tried to assess what will these actions accomplish, then weigh their pros & cons. Choosing to fire a few missiles every now and then on a house here or there in Israel totally fails to accomplish anything meaningful or of any strategic value, except to wreak havoc on their own civilians. In my opinion this is criminal foolishness. Using rockets as an act of protest is a luxury no responsible government can afford. Hamas acted like a child who is very happy with some new toys it obtained from Arab spring countries, that it just had to try them! The fact that the MB is governing Egypt now does not mean that Hamas can force a change in the area by this escalation, and induce Egypt to get involved in a war it is certainely not ready for. This is a gross miscalculation by Hamas.

[ExpandMyMind]

Applying your logic, any response by Hamas, or the Palestinians, would be 'criminal follishness'. What I believe you (and Israel) expect from the Palestinians is appeasement. This is just not on; never going to happen.

This is before we consider that the attacks carried out against Gaza were actually carried out primarily in response to an attack on the Israeli military. Attacks carried out by Hamas in retaliation to the killing of a 13 year old Palestinian child by Israeli forces. Palestinians are killed regularly by Israeli forces, as I'm sure you know.

Quote

Last week’s attacks started when Israel killed a 13-year-old in Gaza. In response, armed groups responded by attacking Israeli military vehicles and firing rockets at civilian areas in Israel. That fighting resulted in the deaths of 7 Palestinians, including 3 children, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights.

http://www.alternet....ombing-campaign

Appeasement?

[meryt-tetisheri]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Applying your logic, any response by Hamas, or the Palestinians, would be 'criminal follishness'. What I believe you (and Israel) expect from the Palestinians is appeasement. This is just not on; never going to happen.

This is before we consider that the attacks carried out against Gaza were actually carried out primarily in response to an attack on the Israeli military. Attacks carried out by Hamas in retaliation to the killing of a 13 year old Palestinian child by Israeli forces. Palestinians are killed regularly by Israeli forces, as I'm sure you know.



http://www.alternet....ombing-campaign

Appeasement?

I think the whole point is to "apply logic", of the kind that does not gratuitously increase the suffering of Palestinians in order to 'retaliate' or 'make a point'. Any action should have an attainable and rational objective, otherwise it's an exercise of folly. Human life should be of more value than to be sacrificed for the sake of bravado or proving a point. Rockets are not stones or decibles! How exactly did Hamas retaliate for the killing of the 13 years old girl, by adding more to the list of victims, other than the loss of property and livelihood? With every attack and counter-attack, more Palestinians are killed and suffer, at what point will an action be re-assessed on the basis of its futility or what it did accomplish? So far, rocket launching has been tried hundreds of times, always with the same result...more death, more destruction, and though it is the politically correct thing to say "resistance by rockets is noble", I still wont say it. I am not a PC person and have no intention of becoming one. The value of human life supersedes that of any slogan or symbolic act. It is time to seriously pursue alternatives.

Yes, I know that Palestinians die, the only difference is that I know it from a much closer vantage point than many, and I am Egyptian not Palestinian. With every war, since 1948,  my family suffered a loss of some kind. While the glorification of war sounds good from a distance or on a forum, up close the reality is far from it.

[Professor T]

ExpandMyMind, on 16 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

http://www.huffingto..._n_2142045.html



http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.478085


If this is true it is actually quite mind blowing. It is further proof that peace is the last thing the Israeli Govt wants.

This is the sort of situation that Hamas had for years been moving towards: long term peace. And I have been saying for years now that violent Hamas is far preferable to the Israeli Govt than peaceful Hamas.

The plan involved a 2 state solution..
That's 1 state to many for israel imo.

Edited by Professor T, 17 November 2012 - 01:30 AM.

[B Jenkins]

Lets not forget the Gazans have been completely land bound for with only two exits out of Gaza, one approximately north into Israel and one approximately south into the Sinai. They dont even have a single airport for crissakes just a single un-useable runway blockaded by Israel. They are completely fenced in by Israel on all sides including the sea.

Gazans can not travel abroad not by land, not by sea, not by air, not even to the West Bank (only rare exceptions have been made). The Gazans have absolutely no freedom of movement.