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Citizen of Israel vs Nazi Checkpoint


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#511    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostYamato, on 02 August 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I know the First Amendment to the US Constitution is a tough one, but there's all kinds of ways to use the term.   For instance here's another - the US government stinks of Mussolini's fascism, something I remember the Nazis were quite fond of.   If that has shock value and we find it surprising then good.

Well, strictly speaking I think Hitler saw the "support" of his ally as more of a liability than anything else.

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#512    skookum

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:59 AM

Youtube is full of people being awkward and difficult with police and officials for some kind of personal satisfaction.


I no longer find it interesting or even entertaining, it is all a bit of a yawn now.

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#513    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:12 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 02 August 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

You should try to use destinct terms correctly. Then we all could take you more seriously.
Whether you like my use of the word Nazi or not, it does not supplant the rule of law.    And don't worry about me, just take the rule of law seriously.  

Chief Justice White:  "In all the States from the beginning down to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the citizens thereof possessed the fundamental right, inherent in citizens of all free governments, peacefully to dwell within the limits of their respective States, to move at will from place to place therein, and to have free ingress thereto and egress therefrom, with a consequent authority in the States to forbid and punish violations of this fundamental right."

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#514    FLOMBIE

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:14 AM

And the context of this quote?


#515    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:16 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 02 August 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

And the context of this quote?
A landmark decision that set the Constitutional precedence of our laws concerning the freedom of movement.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#516    FLOMBIE

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostYamato, on 02 August 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

A landmark decision that set the Constitutional precedence of our laws concerning the freedom of movement.
Name of the decision? Link? How old is it?


#517    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 02 August 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Name of the decision? Link? How old is it?
US v. Wheeler, 93 years old.
http://en.wikipedia....ates_v._Wheeler

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#518    FLOMBIE

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:31 AM

Ok, and you would argue with this decision against the border patrol checkpoints in court?

Chief Justice White:  "In all the States from the beginning down to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the citizens thereof possessed the fundamental right, inherent in citizens of all free governments, peacefully to dwell within the limits of their respective States, to move at will from place to place therein, and to have free ingress thereto and egress therefrom, with a consequent authority in the States to forbid and punish violations of this fundamental right."

Because this is not infringed by the checkpoints at all. If I would get in there, and carry my legal decuments, which I am ought to as a non-citizen to the US, I'd be free to go.


#519    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:40 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 02 August 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Ok, and you would argue with this decision against the border patrol checkpoints in court?

Chief Justice White:  "In all the States from the beginning down to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the citizens thereof possessed the fundamental right, inherent in citizens of all free governments, peacefully to dwell within the limits of their respective States, to move at will from place to place therein, and to have free ingress thereto and egress therefrom, with a consequent authority in the States to forbid and punish violations of this fundamental right."

Because this is not infringed by the checkpoints at all. If I would get in there, and carry my legal decuments, which I am ought to as a non-citizen to the US, I'd be free to go.
Again,

Chief Justice White:  "In all the States from the beginning down to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the citizens thereof possessed the fundamental right, inherent in citizens of all free governments, peacefully to dwell within the limits of their respective States, to move at will from place to place therein, and to have free ingress thereto and egress therefrom, with a consequent authority in the States to forbid and punish violations of this fundamental right."

This is very non-controversial in the US, btw.   People actually expect these rights here. ;)

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#520    FLOMBIE

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:41 AM

So? How is this infringed?

Edit: You know, I was thinking about us having a similar thing in Germany, or Europe. And I could indeed find one thing: You might know that we do not have borders between the souvereign nations forming the Shengen Agreement (free to go, you know ;)) But the respective countries are allowed to have random passport controls on trains, for instance. This rarely happens, but I do see the necessity of those: Illegals are caught this way. Does it prohibit my movement? Not in the slightest.
The same goes for these checkpoints. Which the Nazis did not have, btw.

And you know, if you meet the atrocities of the Nazis on an almost daily basis, you don't handle this term so lax. It's a slap in the face for all who suffered under those b*******.

Edited by FLOMBIE, 02 August 2013 - 09:51 AM.


#521    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 02 August 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

So? How is this infringed?
Because they stopped him for no reason, therefore they violated his right to travel freely.

I'll give you another reference.

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor:  "Article IV's Privileges and Immunities Clause has enjoyed a long association with the rights to travel and migrate interstate. The Clause derives from Art. IV of the Articles of Confederation. The latter expressly recognized a right of "free ingress and regress to and from any other State," in addition to guaranteeing "the free inhabitants of each of these states . . . [the] privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several States." While the Framers of our Constitution omitted the reference to "free ingress and regress," they retained the general guaranty of "privileges and immunities." Charles Pinckney, who drafted the current version of Art. IV, told the Convention that this Article was "formed exactly upon the principles of the 4th article of the present Confederation." Commentators, therefore, have assumed that the Framers omitted the express guaranty merely because it was redundant, not because they wished to excise the right from the Constitution. Early opinions by the Justices of this Court also traced a right to travel or migrate interstate to Art. IV's Privileges and Immunities Clause....Similarly, in Paul v. Virginia, the Court found that one of the "undoubt[ed]" effects of the Clause was to give "the citizens of each State . . . the right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them...."

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#522    Thanato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostYamato, on 02 August 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Whether you like my use of the word Nazi or not, it does not supplant the rule of law. And don't worry about me, just take the rule of law seriously.  

Chief Justice White:  "In all the States from the beginning down to the adoption of the Articles of Confederation the citizens thereof possessed the fundamental right, inherent in citizens of all free governments, peacefully to dwell within the limits of their respective States, to move at will from place to place therein, and to have free ingress thereto and egress therefrom, with a consequent authority in the States to forbid and punish violations of this fundamental right."

Nazi stands for National Socialist Party, a Political Party in Germany in the 1920's, 30's and 40's.

About your quote. The LEO's are not infringing on what the Chief Justice says. If they are a citizen of the country they are allowed freely on their way, and the officers are taking their word at face value with out requesting any further documentation.

However what the video in the OP shows is a man who clearly states he is not a citizen of any of the states and is in fact a foreigner from the sovereign nation of Israel, so that quote is not in play in this circumstance.

EDIT:

That second quote you have clearly states Citizen of the state. Which the OP Video he is clearly in plain english stating that he is in fact not a citizen.

Edited by Thanato, 02 August 2013 - 12:31 PM.

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#523    Mikko-kun

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostThanato, on 02 August 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

That second quote you have clearly states Citizen of the state. Which the OP Video he is clearly in plain english stating that he is in fact not a citizen.

Possible double citizenship and officer's use of common sense that the man is jerking around after he takes the bible?

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#524    Thanato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 02 August 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Possible double citizenship and officer's use of common sense that the man is jerking around after he takes the bible?

The officer has to take what the man says at face value. If he says he's a citizen of Israel he has to assume that it is the Sovereign nation of Israel. Especially when asked multiple times. 'Are you a US Citizen' and he says he's a citizen of israel.

Edited by Thanato, 02 August 2013 - 12:38 PM.

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#525    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:49 PM

View PostYamato, on 02 August 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Your job doesn't confer you your rights.

And yet you still have a right to do your job and carry out the duties you are given...

Quote

   We shouldn't have to show papers simply because we exist.  Everybody's got to exist somewhere.  That is no reason for suspicion.

This ties in with your previous comments that there shouldn't be any check points.

But in saying this, you seem to contradict yourself...Earlier in the thread, Thanto asked you a direct question, which in fact was....see below..


View PostThanato, on 23 July 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

I have a question. Do you support illegal immigration in the United States?

And to that you then answer with.....

View PostYamato, on 23 July 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

No, do you support the Bill of Rights?   How?

So Thanto notes you are not in support of illegal immigration into the US... As seen clearly on this page - http://www.unexplain...c=251504&st=120

You have contradicted yourself in here... One min you are clearly against illegal immigrants entering your country, and now you claim no one should have to show papers as to who they are...Not only that, you told me that there shouldn't be any need for officers and people who work for the government...You may as well have all laws abolished, and let everyone do as they like, and that includes letting in illegal immigrants...  You seriously cannot make your own mind up...

So far you have shown that
1 - You contradict yourself.
2 - You cannot pay full attention to a video you post, you see things no one else see's...You constantly claimed the man was pulled over when clearly your video shows him stopping at a check point like everyone else has to...
3 - You think by rabbiting on about rights rights rights, means you know it all, and you do not feel those who are doing their jobs as officers should be allowed to do it.. ....
4 - You tried several times over to make this thread about you....constantly !
5 - You don't want anyone crossing over to your country to show any papers, just come on in we don't care.  
6 - To top it all off, you want thousands more like the man in the video, to make complete and utter fools of themselves and harass officers.
7 - You would rather Americans deny being an American citizen just to make a point.... Now isn't that just clever?
8 - When asked a few times - Why do you think they have checkpoints?  You fail to answer..You don't seem to understand why these things are in place, and why people need to show papers when entering your country..This includes going through customs in an air port..

View PostYamato, on 02 August 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Enlighten me.  What am I missing?

The point.

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 August 2013 - 01:04 PM.

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