Rudolf Posted October 25, 2006 #1 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Leviticus 25 44 "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations. 45 You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves you may own as chattels, 46 and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen. I bet if that were in the Koran, you'd say to a Muslim: how can you pray to such a God? But now of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Posted October 25, 2006 Author #2 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Deuteronomy 25 11 "When two men are fighting and the wife of one intervenes to save her husband from the blows of his opponent, if she stretches out her hand and seizes the latter by his private parts, 12 you shall chop off her hand without pity. Is that understood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Posted October 25, 2006 Author #3 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Does the Father of Jesus Christ cause cannabalism? Jeremiah 19 8 I will make this city an object of amazement and derision. Because of all its wounds, every passer-by will be amazed and will catch his breath. 9 I will have them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters; they shall eat one another's flesh during the strict siege by which their enemies and those who seek their lives will confine them. Is that the God Christians pray to on Sunday? Rudolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. President Posted October 25, 2006 #4 Share Posted October 25, 2006 what you have to understand is that these are historical books. The are speaking of Jewish law. Why did the Jews choose that law who knows. The point is the laws of Moses do not apply to us anymore because that was part of a covenant unfulfilled. When Jesus died the covenant was fulfilled. When he arose he made a new covenant for All people iinstead of just the Jews. A covenant where the laws of Christ apply. NOt the laws of Moses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio tsunami Posted October 25, 2006 #5 Share Posted October 25, 2006 what you have to understand is that these are historical books. The are speaking of Jewish law. Why did the Jews choose that law who knows. The point is the laws of Moses do not apply to us anymore because that was part of a covenant unfulfilled. When Jesus died the covenant was fulfilled. When he arose he made a new covenant for All people iinstead of just the Jews. A covenant where the laws of Christ apply. NOt the laws of Moses Are we then suppose to ignore the Old Testiment and just focus on the New Testiment? If so then why do churches still fucus thier beliefs on laws and sin on the Old Testiment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Posted October 25, 2006 Author #6 Share Posted October 25, 2006 what you have to understand is that these are historical books. The are speaking of Jewish law. Why did the Jews choose that law who knows. The point is the laws of Moses do not apply to us anymore because that was part of a covenant unfulfilled. When Jesus died the covenant was fulfilled. When he arose he made a new covenant for All people iinstead of just the Jews. A covenant where the laws of Christ apply. NOt the laws of Moses Mr. President, The covenant is not fulfilled. Where did you get that? Ask any Jew. Rudolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf Posted October 25, 2006 Author #7 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Are we then suppose to ignore the Old Testiment and just focus on the New Testiment? If so then why do churches still fucus thier beliefs on laws and sin on the Old Testiment? The problem is the first Christians (mainly Jews) wanted to much. They wanted to sell mediterranean salvation-concepts to Jews. So they tried to save the Old (not to alienate their fellow Jews) and brought the New at the same time. But the Old and the New clash tremedously. The ethics alone. Jahweh was originally only a wind-demon imported from Ugarith. He was made supreme God but stayed a very simple tribal-God. The jews only expected prosperity. A very simple faith. But then from the second cenury BCE Jews more and more came under the influence of other religion (Greeks in particular). And then there is the alchemist, having his hand too in the New Testament. In the Secrets of the Kingdom of God. Why secrets? Asked Nietzsche? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelM Posted October 25, 2006 #8 Share Posted October 25, 2006 what you have to understand is that these are historical books. The are speaking of Jewish law. Why did the Jews choose that law who knows. The point is the laws of Moses do not apply to us anymore because that was part of a covenant unfulfilled. When Jesus died the covenant was fulfilled. When he arose he made a new covenant for All people iinstead of just the Jews. A covenant where the laws of Christ apply. NOt the laws of Moses Sometimes Christians remind me of my 5 y/o step-daughter. She likes to make up games and then tends to change the rules mid-game to up her chance of winning. Part of the time the OT is simply Jewish law, and doesn't need to be regarded by Christians. But, just try to tell the them that they can't display the 10 Commandments in a public building and they get all ticked off and pout about it. Besides, not all of the violence in the Old Testament is the Jewish law. If you want examples, I'll be more than obliging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solitarytraveler Posted October 25, 2006 #9 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I thought that the law of Christ was essentially the Jewish law. Was Christ not the King of the Jews? They are His chosen ones correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio tsunami Posted October 25, 2006 #10 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Sometimes Christians remind me of my 5 y/o step-daughter. She likes to make up games and then tends to change the rules mid-game to up her chance of winning. Part of the time the OT is simply Jewish law, and doesn't need to be regarded by Christians. But, just try to tell the them that they can't display the 10 Commandments in a public building and they get all ticked off and pout about it. Besides, not all of the violence in the Old Testament is the Jewish law. If you want examples, I'll be more than obliging. Right, and also try pointing out contridictions in the Bible and they say you can't believe only bits and pieces it's all or nothing. They need to remember that, whether O.T. or N.T. Moses or Jesus. It's all Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianum Posted October 25, 2006 #11 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Leviticus 25 44 "Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations. 45 You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves you may own as chattels, 46 and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen. That's the law of the ancient Jewish nation. What's wrong with that? Do not make confusion between ancient times slavery and 17th/18th century black slavery, those two were absolutely incomparable. I don't find those slavery acts, at the time, even slightly immoral. Deuteronomy 25 11 "When two men are fighting and the wife of one intervenes to save her husband from the blows of his opponent, if she stretches out her hand and seizes the latter by his private parts, 12 you shall chop off her hand without pity. First it is not even stated as being said by God. Again, those are just the laws of the Jews. Anyway, you have to contextualize it within the time refered. It sounds reasonable then. One tries to interfere with a dispute using a low blow which can result in the death of the opponent instead of that of his husband, the only way to stop that is by cutting her hand. Obviously, I'm sure it never happened because no woman ever attempted to do it. See the logic behind it. Jeremiah 19 8 I will make this city an object of amazement and derision. Because of all its wounds, every passer-by will be amazed and will catch his breath. 9 I will have them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters; they shall eat one another's flesh during the strict siege by which their enemies and those who seek their lives will confine them. First, do you know what those people did? They left the jewish faith and sacrificed their own sons to the god Baal. Not very nice people. God, however, says that if they repent themselves he will welcome them back and do them good things. The cannibalist acts are not God's doing. God will make sure they will be sieged, however, it's their moral degeneration and weakeness that will make them eat each other, obviously it won't be God who will be spoon feeding them. Obviously, the people of Jerusalem ended up repenting themselves. Are we then suppose to ignore the Old Testiment and just focus on the New Testiment? If so then why do churches still fucus thier beliefs on laws and sin on the Old Testiment? The Old Testiment is made of stories AND laws. Those stories offer us clues to understand God. The only laws given directly by God were the 10 comandments, all the others (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.) are as much the law of god as today's laws. Edited October 25, 2006 by Sebastianum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypathia Posted October 25, 2006 #12 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Well put Rachel. I think evangelicals are the biggest flip-floppers there are among the "flock". They respond to Old Testament atrocities with the same excuses as the poster above yet insist that the United States is suppose to support Israel ahead of ourselves because of Genesis 12:3. Two things about the 10 commandments. #1) Our country is full of churches but how often do you see them post the 10 commandments in the church yard? I've never seen it. and #2) Wanna see something funny? Wanna see something REALLY funny? -- Then check this out....give it time to load. [link] Edited October 25, 2006 by Hypathia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianum Posted October 25, 2006 #13 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Well put Rachel. I think evangelicals are the biggest flip-floppers there are among the "flock". They respond to Old Testament atrocities with the same excuses as the poster above yet insist that the United States is suppose to support Israel ahead of ourselves because of Genesis 12:3. I guess that you won't responsabilize Taoism or Budism for the single-child policy in China will you? I don't think the OT is to be ignored, quite the contrary. It's only that the laws in the Torah are like the ancient jewish version of a Constitution. Edited October 25, 2006 by Sebastianum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio tsunami Posted October 25, 2006 #14 Share Posted October 25, 2006 name='Sebastianum' date='Oct 25 2006, 01:13 PM' post='1403891'] That's the law of the ancient Jewish nation. What's wrong with that? Do not make confusion between ancient times slavery and 17th/18th century black slavery, those two were absolutely incomparable. I don't find those slavery acts, at the time, even slightly immoral. Maybe you don't, but slavery is still slavery. The Old Testiment is made of stories AND laws. Those stories offer us clues to understand God. The only laws given directly by God were the 10 comandments, all the others (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.) are as much the law of god as today's laws. The difference of that time being that you were executed either by God himself or others doing what God commanded them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypathia Posted October 25, 2006 #15 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) I guess that you won't responsabilize Taoism or Budism for the single-child policy in China will you? I don't think the OT is to be ignored, quite the contrary. It's only that the laws in the Torah are like the ancient jewish version of a Constitution. Pardon me? I don't understand what your question has to do with what I said. I don't know much about Taoism, Buddism or China since I don't live in that country. -- I do know about the Chinese, one-child policy; I disagree with forced abortion. I think I could have written a better set of laws than are in the Torah. I think our own U.S. Constitution is better than the Torah even though it's taken 200 yrs for minority groups to realize any benefit from it. Edited October 25, 2006 by Hypathia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypathia Posted October 25, 2006 #16 Share Posted October 25, 2006 The difference of that time being that you were executed either by God himself or others doing what God commanded them to. OR........... people excuting and raping other people, then lying and saying God told em to do it; to justify doing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelM Posted October 25, 2006 #17 Share Posted October 25, 2006 The Old Testiment is made of stories AND laws. Those stories offer us clues to understand God. The only laws given directly by God were the 10 comandments, all the others (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.) are as much the law of god as today's laws. Um, you might want to do a little more OT reading, and then do a re-count on the laws that were given directly by god. and #2) Wanna see something funny? Wanna see something REALLY funny? -- Then check this out....give it time to load. [link] Great link, Hypathia. I love me some Stephen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio tsunami Posted October 25, 2006 #18 Share Posted October 25, 2006 OR........... people excuting and raping other people, then lying and saying God told em to do it; to justify doing wrong. You said what I wanted to say, I just didn't word it as good as you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianum Posted October 25, 2006 #19 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Pardon me? I don't understand what your question has to do with what I said. I don't know much about Taoism, Buddism or China since I don't live in that country. -- I do know about the Chinese, one-child policy; I disagree with forced abortion. You criticized Christians because they tend to disregard the laws in the Torah using as an excuse the fact that they were the jewish laws and nothing more. I ask you then if you make any correlation between the one-child policy in China and Taoism (their predominant religion). I think I could have written a better set of laws than are in the Torah. I think our own U.S. Constitution is better than the Torah even though it's taken 200 yrs for minority groups to realize any benefit from it. I didn't say the contrary, I just said that the Torah's law & punishment system is no more the word of God than any national Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianum Posted October 25, 2006 #20 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Maybe you don't, but slavery is still slavery. But slavery is not inherently immoral. The difference of that time being that you were executed either by God himself or others doing what God commanded them to. You mean what others thought that God commanded them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandore Posted October 25, 2006 #21 Share Posted October 25, 2006 But slavery is not inherently immoral. Maybe you don't, but slavery is still slavery. So you approve of slavery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianum Posted October 25, 2006 #22 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Um, you might want to do a little more OT reading, and then do a re-count on the laws that were given directly by god. Zero. Even the 10 commanments are not laws, they're orders, requests. Laws are rules, rules have the following aspect: "If A, B.". The 10 commandments are just "Do not A.". God, doesn't give laws, he just offers us guides in the form of requests, laws are an invention of mankind to maintain public order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rev r Posted October 25, 2006 #23 Share Posted October 25, 2006 You criticized Christians because they tend to disregard the laws in the Torah using as an excuse the fact that they were the jewish laws and nothing more. I ask you then if you make any correlation between the one-child policy in China and Taoism (their predominant religion). There is no correllation to be made. Mao's Communist regime outlawed religion and closed the temples, just like they did in Tibet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastianum Posted October 25, 2006 #24 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) So you approve of slavery? Sure. Possibly, you also do it. Don't you sentence people to comunity service over there? There is no correllation to be made. Mao's Communist regime outlawed religion and closed the temples, just like they did in Tibet. Exactment! What a genius you are! Edited October 25, 2006 by Sebastianum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohio tsunami Posted October 25, 2006 #25 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) The Old Testiment is made of stories AND laws. Those stories offer us clues to understand God. The only laws given directly by God were the 10 comandments, all the others (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.) are as much the law of god as today's laws. Zero. Even the 10 commanments are not laws, they're orders, requests. Laws are rules, rules have the following aspect: "If A, B.". The 10 commandments are just "Do not A.". God, doesn't give laws, he just offers us guides in the form of requests, laws are an invention of mankind to maintain public order. Do you consider the 10 Commandments laws of god or not. Losing me here. Please clarify. Edited October 25, 2006 by ohio tsunami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now