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Corporal punishment - For or against?


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#16    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostSherapy, on 04 March 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:



Same with me I have 3 sons; I would of not even considered hitting my kids.
My five year old has made me question it a few times, but I am the adult. Creativity will trump a heavy hand any time.

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#17    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:29 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 March 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Comparing corporal punishment to abuse is asinine.This goes along with the "if someone hits you at school turn around and go tell a teacher" Yeah so they can literally beat the **** out of you when you try to turn and run off.Best way to deal with a bully?Stand up to them and fight back.No wonder our country is full of a bunch of soft help me gov types anymore.The world is a tough place and only getting worse,its time people toughen back up or lay down and get walked over.
While I'm not in total disagreement about sticking up for yourself, your attitude actually breeds the bully culture. People bullying their kids into compliance leads to those kids bullying others, which leads to the kid fighting back, which leads to that kid wanting revenge, back and forth. You are mistaken American politics, law, and government culture is built on bullying, throwing ones weight around, and dominance. It's one of the reasons we can't get anything done.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#18    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 March 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

While I'm not in total disagreement about sticking up for yourself, your attitude actually breeds the bully culture. People bullying their kids into compliance leads to those kids bullying others, which leads to the kid fighting back, which leads to that kid wanting revenge, back and forth. You are mistaken American politics, law, and government culture is built on bullying, throwing ones weight around, and dominance. It's one of the reasons we can't get anything done.

LMFAO You dont know a damn thing about my attitude,i was never a bully back in school i actually usually took up for the weaker kids.And teaching your child right from wrong and them knowing what consequences are is not bullying you need to put down the peace pipe there man and be real.If you think standing up for yourself makes one a bully then well you need to go find a hippie commune to live in and keep your whole family far away from any big cities for life.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#19    IamsSon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 March 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Do you not believe me?

There is a difference between undiscplined and disciplined but not violent. A big difference.
Yes, I do not believe you.  There are parents who either are too uncaring or uninvolved or just too ignorant to realize or care that their child is not the disciplined little darling they fool themselves into believing, or who have lowered the bar of what "disciplined" means until their brat can just barely scrape over it.  There is also a gulf of difference between corporal punishment and violence.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#20    redhen

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 March 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

People bullying their kids into compliance leads to those kids bullying others,

Corporal punishment as a form of discipline is not bullying. Like others with a military background who can relate to Heinlein's work, there seems to be a wide gulf between civilians and soldiers. It seems to be impassible.

Anyways, there is another thread on corporal punishment (in schools), so if a mod wants to merge them, I have no objection.


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#21    Sherapy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Yes, I do not believe you.  There are parents who either are too uncaring or uninvolved or just too ignorant to realize or care that their child is not the disciplined little darling they fool themselves into believing, or who have lowered the bar of what "disciplined" means until their brat can just barely scrape over it.  There is also a gulf of difference between corporal punishment and violence.


EEks, @ Redhen and Iamson,


Discipline is integral to parenting, but I think your understanding of what it entails and means is in error. In our modern day,with out Psychological ideas on parenting, it would not be be not taught/or suggested to  be taught via hitting a 6 month old baby.

This would be seen as abuse.

In context of a maturing child, discipline means being self responsible, self accountable, self aware, and in control of ones behaviors.

At a very early age kids can grasp the meaning of No, without hitting them , it's a simple matter of being consistent while they learn the ropes/rules of the house. Of course some kids will pick it up faster then others, but the key is consistency. What we are teaching them is how to set boundaries for/by themselves  and it starts with the ability to understand No and restrain themselves at the point they can. It is a process of maturity which never has to be accomplished by harming/hitting a kid.

I have 3 boys I never had to hit them to establish boundaries, they have different personalities and who learned the concept of "No"  quickly and without any need to hit them..

The key is to be paying attention, be on top of your parenting, stay consistent. I literally monitored my kids diligently in their waking moments for years  and approached my parenting as my job which was to teach them how to apply the tenets of self discipline as soon as they could and this is about 6 months old.


Of course, it's age appropriately and  we add on as we go.

Edited by Sherapy, 04 March 2013 - 08:52 PM.




#22    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:03 PM

Sherapy i dont think anyone here is talking about discipline of babies,talking about school age children.Ones who pick up behaviors from others who they socialize with.Face the facts most parents now days do not take the responsibility to raise their children much less discipline them.I personally know people who brag on their "little angels" all the time when around large groups but when not out in public the truth comes out "i dont know what to do" so and so got in trouble for this,has to go somewhere for that.As i said in another post on this same subject this is a situational thing.Not a one size fits all discussion.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#23    Sherapy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 04 March 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

My five year old has made me question it a few times, but I am the adult. Creativity will trump a heavy hand any time.

My middle son was full of full of energy /life, very impassioned and curious, our biggest concern was how to keep these amazing things about him while he matured.




#24    IamsSon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:14 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 March 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Sherapy i dont think anyone here is talking about discipline of babies,talking about school age children.Ones who pick up behaviors from others who they socialize with.Face the facts most parents now days do not take the responsibility to raise their children much less discipline them.I personally know people who brag on their "little angels" all the time when around large groups but when not out in public the truth comes out "i dont know what to do" so and so got in trouble for this,has to go somewhere for that.As i said in another post on this same subject this is a situational thing.Not a one size fits all discussion.
Actually, I was talking about babies.  If you're still having to tell a two, three or four-year-old not to tug on the TV 's power cord because they might bring the TV down on their head, then either you and/or your child have a serious problem. The situation with the power cord was a real event.  The first day we put my son in a walker he raced over to the power cord and tried to yank it.  I moved him away from the TV, and tried to put the cord away from him, but within minutes he was back there again trying to get to the cord, so then the hand smacks began.  We only went through a few cycles of him dashing for the cord, me grabbing the walker before he got there, and tapping him on the top of his hand before he decided he was no longer interested in that.  As my son learned to understand spoken language. the need for physical communication waned.  But because we started early in his development with him, we never dealt with the issues I see other parents' dealing with; having 9 or 10 year-olds running around taunting them or ignoring them in the middle of malls or at parties.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#25    Sherapy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 March 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Sherapy i dont think anyone here is talking about discipline of babies,talking about school age children.Ones who pick up behaviors from others who they socialize with.Face the facts most parents now days do not take the responsibility to raise their children much less discipline them.I personally know people who brag on their "little angels" all the time when around large groups but when not out in public the truth comes out "i dont know what to do" so and so got in trouble for this,has to go somewhere for that.As i said in another post on this same subject this is a situational thing.Not a one size fits all discussion.

Indeed kids are influenced by their peers, and there are serious things to consider and monitor for. I have kids-- I live in a metropolis (California) my parenting encompasses the reality that my kids will and have faced things that they needed to be prepared for. I did not hit them to do this. I reasoned with them and started this early, I am a stay at home mom, I know the importance of having rules and standards and I take my role seriously.

I just have never had to hit my kids to teach them anything, their mistakes are not the kind that ruin their lives. I know that the mere fact that I play close attention matters a lot  and I stay informed myself.  I am suggesting  there are alternatives to hitting kids and telling you based in experience one can have great kids and not beat them. I am living it.




#26    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Actually, I was talking about babies.  If you're still having to tell a two, three or four-year-old not to tug on the TV 's power cord because they might bring the TV down on their head, then either you and/or your child have a serious problem. The situation with the power cord was a real event.  The first day we put my son in a walker he raced over to the power cord and tried to yank it.  I moved him away from the TV, and tried to put the cord away from him, but within minutes he was back there again trying to get to the cord, so then the hand smacks began.  We only went through a few cycles of him dashing for the cord, me grabbing the walker before he got there, and tapping him on the top of his hand before he decided he was no longer interested in that.  As my son learned to understand spoken language. the need for physical communication waned.  But because we started early in his development with him, we never dealt with the issues I see other parents' dealing with; having 9 or 10 year-olds running around taunting them or ignoring them in the middle of malls or at parties.

Im talking about the ones you mention near the end of your post,bootcamp for a few months may teach them a few things.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#27    IamsSon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 March 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Im talking about the ones you mention near the end of your post,bootcamp for a few months may teach them a few things.
Got it.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#28    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

View PostSherapy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Indeed kids are influenced by their peers, and there are serious things to consider and monitor for. I have kids-- I live in a metropolis (California) my parenting encompasses the reality that my kids will and have faced things that they needed to be prepared for. I did not hit them to do this. I reasoned with them and started this early, I am a stay at home mom, I know the importance of having rules and standards and I take my role seriously.

I just have never had to hit my kids to teach them anything, their mistakes are not the kind that ruin their lives. I know that the mere fact that I play close attention matters a lot  and I stay informed myself.  I am suggesting  there are alternatives to hitting kids and telling you based in experience one can have great kids and not beat them. I am living it.

We have another thread about this same subject on another topic sherapy,you just mentioned the number 1 thing i have stated as the problem in another topic.Traditional family values are mostly gone now days,you sound like a attentive caring parent most now days are not they want the rest of the world to babysit there children for them.As said i believe it to be a situational problem.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#29    shadowhive

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Anyone who's actually read "Starship Troopers" (one of my favorite books) or any of Heinlein's work knows if anything Heinlein's views were the complete antithesis of fascism; the guy was so libertarian he would probably scare most of today's libertarians.

I think leftists have done an amazing job of equating physical abuse with corporal punishment and American/Western European society is much the poorer for having bought into this.

As an officer in the military--someone who had been required to go through a great deal of training and preparation--I have a very clear understanding that it is almost impossible to have a civilian understand how to function as a soldier.  To require a civilian to act as a soldier would most likely result in his injury, and potentially his death and/or the death of others; and would at least result in their (and my) frustration.  It would be incredibly unfair to simply turn a civilian lose in a military environment and tell him he is now a soldier  The tasks, procedures, processes, and even the terminology one learns basic trainee learns are essential.

As a parent, I realized my child was in the same spot as a civilian is in before undergoing basic training.  He did not have the capability of understanding anything.  Language, spoken or written was absolutely meaningless to him.  I could go hoarse talking to him and he would not understand a single thing. But it was my duty to insure he learned everything necessary for his survival and eventually his success while insuring he did not get himself maimed or killed due to his ignorance.  He did not understand language, but his body came pre-wired to avoid pain and discomfort, so I had to deal with him from that standpoint while I trained him to understand language.  He might not understand, "Please do not yank on the TV's power cord because you may pull the TV off it's pedestal and on your head," but he understood that every time he pulled on the cord I would smack his hand and that hurt and he did not want his hand to hurt, so he should not pull the cord.  I seriously doubt a seven-month-old grasps that a "timeout" is supposed to be discipline.

You cannot treat the world as an army boot camp.

Yes most civilians would make poor soliders but guess what? That works for anyone doing anything that requires training! A person off the street wouldn't make a good surgeon or lawyer or firefighter. These jobs require certain mindsets, certain skill sets and, yes, a great degree of training. Also not everyone is cut out to be x, y, z. Some peole would break down in army training because it would be too much for them. Other ones simply wouldn't be able to do it or wouldn't be able to handle combat.

Children do require 'basic training' in a sense. They come into this world clueless and have to be taught things because they know nothing.

When I have a kid, I'm not hitting my kid. Such a thing seems unthinkable to me. You can teach a child discipline without violence.

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#30    CrimsonKing

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:37 PM

The way the word violence keeps getting thrown around in this conversation is amazing,i got whipped when i was a kid.It was never violence,i just learned a lesson end of story.Has anyone here ever been in a fight or actually seen violence?I feel like im having a conversation with people who grew up with leave it to beaver as the setting for their neighborhoods.

Oh and guess what i have a clean criminal record,no mental issues,have a good job,and am more respectful than most.So much for the "causes all kinds of problems issue" Not trying to be a ******* but people need to toughen up some

Edited by CrimsonKing, 04 March 2013 - 09:39 PM.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu




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